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Comment by grabcocque | Hacker News Reader

Extending the old adage "the best programming language is the one you know the best" to "the best programming language is the one you created the best".

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Reminds me of the "no free lunch" theorem from ML. To paraphrase, there is no language that is better than every other language on all tasks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_free_lunch_theorem

That obviously applies to all domains of life, but when it's actually said out loud, it's most often a cop-out. It's very improbably that the current-era languages are at (or anywhere near) the local optima of their respective niches. Sure, you don't want to issue database queries in C++ or write a high-frequency trading engine in JavaScript, but there's still a lot of progress being made, and to be made on every front of programming language development (syntax, type systems, semantics, libraries, compilation strategies, memory/resource management, ...).

>improbably that the current-era languages are at (or anywhere near) the local optima of their respective niches.

Your statement is true (e.g. Javascript/C++/etc syntax is suboptimal and could be better). However it's a separate concept from what grandparent posters' grabcocque and visarga are talking about. If we engage with their point, it's not a "cop-out" but stating an important fundamental truth about the syntax of all programming languages. Many beginners do not know this truth as can be seen by the following questions in the wild:

- Why can't there be an “universal” programming language that serves all purposes? : https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/4889...

- ELI5: Why isn't there a universal programming language? : https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/j2v84/el...

- Why are there so many programming languages? : https://stackoverflow.com/questions/4334954/why-are-there-so...

- Why there are so many programming languages? Can't we create one language to do everything? : https://www.quora.com/Why-there-are-so-many-programming-lang...

The top voted answers in each case tries to explain it using analogies. (e.g. hammer is wrong tool for driving screws, etc). However, I'm not sure they actually provide the insight needed to make the questioner understand that creating the "One Universal Programming Language" is mathematically impossible. It's not possible to express multiple disparate concepts using finite characters with minimum string length for ease of typing and reading. All desirable concepts cannot simultaneously share the same minimal syntax for convenience. (This impossibility is also not solved by splitting concepts via language-vs-library as in "language reserved keywords" vs "library function calls".)

(As an educational exercise, we could ask the questioner to try to invent a "One Universal Programming Language". He would soon run into contradictions rooted in trying to express multiple concepts via finite symbols. Eventually of those concepts he desires will end up being encoded with noisier and inconvenient syntax.)

Why can't there be an “universal” programming language that serves all purposes?

It could be argued that x86-64 is a universal programming language that currently serves all purposes across a very wide swath of all computation, modulo a number of interpreters, compilers, and VMs. Even that doesn't take care of literally all, however.

Not really: you don't type assembler for performing any of those tasks. The point is convenience, readability, etc.

I view this as shifting complexity around.

All Turing-complete languages are essentially equivalent, and there is some essential minimum complexity in any computation you'd like to describe. Any given language we use makes trade-offs, which cause some programs to be expressed simply in it, but the cost is that some other programs will become much more complex to express in it.

Maybe, but comp-sci does not study all possible programs with equal probability. A notation should be optimized for the kind of problems that are more often studied, and make expressing those easier.

If this pushes complexity towards the expression of randomly generated programs, that's a good thing (except for the few guys that study randomly generated programs, that is).

Yes. This is the general mental model I use when explaining that the design goal of a good general-purpose language is to shift the complexity to the areas almost no one will care about. Also your corollary from a sibling comment can be restated as saying that you can get extra simplicity for a particular task by designing DSL that will shift complexity to outside of its domain.

... which is why a certain class of programs is most elegantly described in brainfuck?

Certainly there are tradeoffs to be made, but this does not mean that some languages are not simply better than others.

> ... which is why a certain class of programs is most elegantly described in brainfuck?

Possibly, though for sure those aren't programs you'd usually want to write.

The key phrase of my comment was "essential complexity". You can pile up extra complexity that's not helping anything, but assuming you got rid of it, all you can do to make things easier is to shift the remaining complexity around the problem space.

I'd argue that no language in existence is even remotely close to having no extra complexity.

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_free_lunch_theorem

This is a very theoretical result that people often overinterpret bease it has a catchy name. But it has no relevance for real world data.

No Free Lunch is very real, and occurs in many different guises under different masks. Here is an example constructive instantiation of No Free Lunch: https://blog.acolyer.org/2017/09/12/universal-adversarial-pe...

That article doesn't mention no free lunch at all. Also, they're just calculating small perturbations that send the classifier over decision boundaries.

As I noted below, it could be argued that x86-64 is a universal programming language that currently serves all purposes across a very wide swath of all computation, modulo a number of interpreters, compilers, and VMs. (Even that doesn't take care of literally all, however.) So maybe there's no free lunch, but you can get lunch for a "coupon" in the form of a compiler or interpreter, which for many is close enough to free.

All Turing-Complete languages are universal.

No Turing-Complete language is best for all problems.

(That's why CPUs get GPUs, for example.)

All Turing-Complete languages are universal. No Turing-Complete language is best for all problems.

But that doesn't mean they are or are not "fit for purpose." That brings in a lot of subjective and human factors.

As a corollary, if you're using a general purpose language, there will always exist some domain where a Domain Specific Language will be equal or better.

That is why Macros and creating your own DSL is so powerful :)

This is purely my opinion but after working in the Ruby world for a few years I've concluded that DSLs are harmful as all hell.

A DSL is almost never as well-implemented as a "real" language, ala Ruby/Java/Haskell/whatever. This is to be expected, as orders of magnitude more engineering time are placed in those "real" languages.

Specifically, DSLs tend to be very leaky abstractions. I always find myself needing to look at what's happening in the bowels of the library providing the DSL anyway; a DSL essentially just adds another level of indirection.

Particularly for beginners, but also for more experienced coders, it can be difficult to tell where the language and its core libraries end and the DSL begins. If your DSL "foo" seamlessly adds the command "bar" to language "baz" and it's not working for me, where do I look for information? In "foo" or "baz?" The obvious example here is Ruby on Rails.

Some may say that Rails is a poor example of a DSL. While that may be, it raises the question: are there better examples out there?

Given that the goal of a DSL is to blend into the underlying language, I'm not sure how any implementation would avoid those pifalls. To me, the best case scenario is that DSLs generally save a moderate amount of typing in exchange for a considerable amount of cognitive overhead.

A good DSL is just a library - or at least, there's no clear sharp line between them. Likewise, I think good programming looks a lot like creating a DSL (or rather a succession of them, with a tower of interpreters from the business logic at top level down to lower-level DSLs until you get to one that can be interpreted directly by the machine). The difference between a good DSL and a bad DSL is that a good DSL lets you reason about it the way you reason about normal, plain old code: you can factor out repeated function calls, inline constants that are only used in one place, and so on, and it will all just work the way you'd expect. A good DSL should just be plain old code, as should most of the language standard library, and then it doesn't really matter whether a given function is part of the language or a library.

I've been very happy with the Scala DSL experience; I'd suggest something like https://github.com/http4s/rho as an example.

I don't think it's fair to judge DSLs (Embedded DSLs or EDSLs to be more precise) as a whole based on Ruby alone. I write Ruby at my day job and I think it's metaprogramming features are lacking. Languages like Clojure, Scheme, and Common Lisp are much better places to look. Designing languages is an inherent part of programming, but not being able to extend the syntax of your host language (as is the case in many languages) is very limiting.

In the years I've spent writing ES5 JavaScript code, I've constantly wished there was a macro system I could use to stop writing this:

    (function($) { doSomeJQueryStuff(); })(jQuery)

and instead write something like this, which is what I could do in any other sane lexically scoped language:

    let($ = jQuery) { doSomeJqueryStuff(); }

Instead I had to wait for the language design gods to add similar syntax to ES6. I think any programmer should be able to put on their language designer hat and add some syntax if they want.

>Some may say that Rails is a poor example of a DSL. While that may be, it raises the question: are there better examples out there?

You are understanding DSL as "ok, let's import this library that defines a DSL".

In the Lisp world, one favored approach is to express the problem in the most natural way possible (i.e. like if describing the problem in english, or in any case, in your dsl language that best suits the problem.) Then, you use Lisp macros and implement this DSL. This has the side effect of making your program work, and thus, your problem to be solved. And, thus, the problem itself is specified in a high-level DSL, where it's more easy to understand and modify.

Note, also, that on a Lisp-family language, creating a DSL is very easy, since metaprogramming is very very similar to regular programming. (In Lisp, metaprogramming is not some advanced topic; quite the opposite, is taught to beginners as well.)

So, for example, if i want to create myself a library that outputs HTML, i define my DSL, which can be something like:

   (with-html-output
      (:html
         (:head
            (:title my-page-title))))

or perhaps

   (do-html-output
      (do-html-head :title my-page-title
                    :includes js-include-list))

Then, later, i'll create the functions and macros that make my language work. This solves my problem.

As you can see, anybody who knows about the problem domain of "let's do HTML output", will easily understand this DSL. In any case, if you are importing a library that defines a DSL, if the library is good, then by definition the DSL expresses the problem in the clearest way possible, and thus, it should be an easy library to use.

Perhaps it has something to do with the syntax? In Lisp, the syntax is very uniform (s-expressions) while Ruby has a far greater variety of symbols and constructs.

> Note, also, that on a Lisp-family language, creating a DSL is very easy.

I'd argue that this is a bug, not a feature. Yes, DSLs can make for elegant code, but it comes at a high cost in the form of a hidden dependency: the state of the DSL author's brain.

In order for us to share a codebase with a DSL, I now need to understand your unique, high-level view of the problem, and be able to speak it fluently.

And if your view of the problem is incorrect, I need to be able to hold two conflicting viewpoints in my head and find a way to resolve them. (Something that humans find quite difficult.)

A quick `s/DSL/library/g` and the result is just as true and just as much of an issue.

I don't agree at all.

On a small project that utilizes a single DSL or a single library, sure, the difference is negligible.

On a large project with many DSLs and/or libraries (ie Rails) it's not easy to tell if a given thing is part of Ruby or part of the many-headed beast that is Rails. (or which of those heads provided it...)

I disagree.

A library works within the style and bounds of the base language.

A DSL intends to re-define the base language and invent new keywords and a unique control flow.

Yes, and that is exactly what programmers do: they create hierarchies: we had started with assembly and now we've got easily-scalable-to-multiple-computers cloud platforms which also need to be programmed.

God bless generations of programmers doing the same thing over and over again.

It's funny how you can't even agree that there _might_ be languages that do allow you to create your own DSLs within the style of those languages; there _isn't_ a base language.

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