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Comment by wallace_f | Hacker News Reader

A teacher lost ~60lbs on a McDonalds-only diet.(1)

As the article states, the reasons for obesity are "complex," and 'involve blaming society, and everyone else' for individual choices.

The most interesting thing about this topic is why does if fit entirely into the "can't blame them category," when there are still so many examples--albeit on a diminishing list--of other personal choices that one may be acceptably villified for--many of which don't even involve environmental destruction and animal rights abuses?

Yes culture, wealth, consumer products, job opportunities, and corn subsidies all participate; but perhaps the biggest problem is one of personal responsibility.

By contrast, in Japan obesity wins you an automatic trip to counseling(2).

1-https://www.today.com/health/man-loses-56-pounds-after-eatin...

2-https://www.bu.edu/themovement/2011/05/29/the-fats-on-fire/

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I think Japan is a great example of personal responsibility. Food in Japan or at least the major cities is ridiculously easy to come by. Convenience stores every 2-3 minutes open 24 hours with loads of food, snacks, pastries, donuts, ice cream, liquor, beer. Liquor and Beer are as low as $1.20 a can. All the super markets now also carry tons of ready to eat foods and meals (because convenience stores were eating into their market) as well as chips, desserts, liquor, etc... Many more restaurants than anywhere else I've lived are open until morning. And there is fast food of all sorts as well, way more bread/pastries stores than just about anywhere on the planet. And yes, they have tons of greasy salty and sugary foods available.

And yet Japanese aren't nearly as obese. That would seem to suggest either genetics or self control.

Certain things help like often (not always) portions are smaller but you can always buy 2+

You also have to factor in that people generally walk way WAY more in Japan than in the US. Most cities in the US, you drive to get basically anywhere, and the only regular walking people get is to and from their car. In Japan, most people walk (including walking to and from transit stops) quite a bit, every day.

The first time we went to Tokyo, my wife lost ten lbs in a week and a half. Granted as tourists we were walking more than Tokyo residents, but still, to get around in Japan walking is just kind of what you do. My brother in law had a similar experience when he was with my sister who was doing an internship in a smaller Japanese city, he lost a ton of weight without trying.

Fair point, but if your wife lost 10 lbs in 10 days, it wasn't from the walking.

The walking would have contributed, but some quick Googling to check my intuition states 3,500calories/lb and 100calories/mile running. Call it 200/mile. That's 175 miles of walking and without eating anything for 10 days.

Probably >90% of this weight loss was due to normal fluctuations in bowel movements, fluids, and scale errors.

The 3500 calories / lb theory has no scientific basis. [1] It is much more complex than that.

http://www.zoeharcombe.com/2014/06/the-calorie-theory-prove-...

This is just quibbling. The exact number may vary a little from person to person but it's in the right ballpark.

From the Japanese people I know and have talked to, I don't think it's so much personal responsibility as it is societal pressure.

Being fat is looked upon as a bad thing in Japan, and people will let you know. Meanwhile, in the Western world, it's rude, even taboo to talk about people's weight.

It's not just social pressure, for some it's outright forced by the employer. E.g. civil servants have to maintain a healthy BMI. You are given a physical examination once a year and if your BMI is too high you have to go on a diet or you're fired.

as harsh and intolerant as it may sound, this might be the most effective way to fix widespread obesity disease.

some more ideas - give a tax/health insurance benefits to those under certain BMI, subsidies on gym membership (but somehow make sure that there are actually regular workouts happening). some of these are happening on some places, but having it in embedded in laws would make our societies healthier and it would also fix the mindset.

or add an extra tax on all foods that contain sugar/corncrap/monosacharides above certain threshold, plus raw sugar itself.

I just went to Japan the other week and sampled some of the snacks at the convenience stores.

In general, they weren't nearly as sweet as what you find in the USA.

Did Japan go through the same low-fat craze that America went through from the 70's forward? A lot of the tasty fat here was replaced with sugar. That led to people being less sated and portion sizes going up.

Just expanding on your idea here - Japan also has a million times more vending machines as the US and they're full of Pepsi/Coke products, fruit juices, energy drinks, and even ice cream or beer. At 2am you can get your carb fix across the street from your apartment for a measly 100yen.

I have often wondered whether nations full of the descendants of rice-farming peasants are genetically better at dealing with carbs than those descended from northern Europeans.

Are there no carbs in Europe? Wheat, barley, corn, rye?

These reasons are why it is only speculation. And also why I concentrated on Northern Europe, where agriculture is more recent and meat was always a larger part of the diet even in the agricultural age.

My brother, who lives in Japan, has mentioned that snack sizes, like chip bags, are much smaller there compared with US sizes.

Randomly bought bread/snack in Japan (or Europe) has less sugar then bread/snack in USA. Seriously. Everything in USA is much much sweater and bread tastes like a cake. At least my personal experience was that when I eat whatever till I feel full in Japan, I am loosing weight and in USA it is very much gaining weight.

Even coke (or pepsi not sure) has different amount of sugar in it depending on region - here comparing eu vs usa.

Randomly bought bread/snack in Japan (or Europe) has less sugar then bread/snack in USA.

Is that true? When I was in Japan a couple of years ago I found that at least their 'US/European' style bread and cakes where all sickly sweet sometimes verging on being almost being inedible. More traditional snacks though did seem less sugary.

Isn't European bread different than the US bread? Even within EU bread may be totally different based on the location.

That is strange. Asian (korean/japanese in this case) bakeries are quite popular BECAUSE most of the breads and pastries are loaded with sugar. Goes well with Coffee (also with sugar)

There's some interesting data in this video about fast-food in Japan vs. US:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZW4jOlyj-sM

Surprisingly, hamburgers and fries have more calories in Japan.

But maybe that's a difference in how they're measured?

I'm not sure about fast food burgers but Japan has amazing hamburgers. I also think most bowls of the "house special ramen" at any major ramen store are probably 1200+ calories.

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipO5Yc2ER79pb4d0qyAF5A_P...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/greggman/albums/72157594189733...

Of course Japanese in most big cities also walk more on average than most car bound Americans?

Fat shaming, works.

There's a difference between fat shaming and people who care about someone expressing concern for their well-being.

And also completely destroys people's mental health.

Personally, I just think fat shaming "for their own good" is an excuse by assholes to be assholes.

>As the article states, the reasons for obesity are "complex," and 'involve blaming society, and everyone else' for individual choices.

Which makes total sense, because "individual choices" are never made from a blank state, but always in an already developed environment, which pushes towards certain vectors more so than to others.

While it's a classic (religious-derived) moral point to put it all on individual choice, the people who do so overestimate their own ability to make choices. Either because they lived life in easy mode (so they can't fathom the forces that make it hard for others to take the high road) or because they are the rare outliers that made it to the other side despite the circumstances (and suffer from survivor bias).

Humans are very imperfect machines, able to be manipulated from countless evolutionary-derived tricks -- which casinos, super markets, marketeers, politicians, and of course fast-food joints and the food industry take advantage of. The second point (tricks that can be used to manipulate people towards certain actions, from adding salt/sugar to some food to changing the color of light in a room have been studied a-plenty.

If we were raised any society of the past where some beliefs where held by most, most of us would support them (eg. pro Party in 1936 Germany, pro slavery in 1820 South), "individual choices" be damned. The outcome wouldn't be the same if we were asked our opinion for the same things in another society/time.

Just to be clear, I'm never making any ethical statement that we should condemn or make obese into pariahs, if that is what you are worried about.

Yep, what I tried to get to was, in gist, "it's more complicated than individuals should be responsible for their own choices".

> but perhaps the biggest problem is one of personal responsibility.

How is it a kid's responsibility when they are fed with junk food from their parents or their school?

Freedom of choice and personal responsibility is all fine, but one shouldn't underestimate the brainwashing power of big food corporations. Mac Donald's and the like devote a lot of energy into convincing people to eat their stuff. It's their incentive to sell as much food as they can, making people obese as a side effect, and they're very successful at it. Apparently this is fine, but if the government tries to somehow counterbalance it, it's viewed as an inacceptable threat to our fundamental rights. I just don't get it.

I wasn't making that argument, though.

In my post I already noted some agreement with you -- it is fair to say all those things you mention play a role, and I said that. In fact, I would go a step further with improving government intervention and am in favor of abolishing farm subsidies for corn (which subsidizes junk food and corn syrup). I even think taxes on junk food and sugar is a great idea.

So I am with you most of the way.

However, at the end of the day should we be teaching people they are not responsible for their choices? Ultimately, when even with McD as your only option you can lose weight and still be relatively healthy, is the individual without fault?

And regardless of the answer, even in the extreme case of no-fault, I just don't see the lack of responsibility productive.

Additionally, I am weary of why we put some failings in a "can't blame them basket," while others not, when everything comes down to environmental influences--A person left to age from birth in a dark, silent room will not be a person the way you and I understand it. So should we just give up on personal responsibility and blame everything on everyone else? There is not one shred of taking individual responsibility in that article.

I'm sure the food industry would love to see the blame pushed onto individuals and away from themselves.

>A teacher lost ~60lbs on a McDonalds-only diet.

He was my Uber driver once and spent the 45 minute ride from Des Moines to Ames trying to sell me his book :) Nice guy.

IMHO, the experiment of Morgan Spurlock is more significant than your teacher. A McDonals-only diet might make you lose weight in a more definitive manner.

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