Comment by pvaldes | Hacker News Reader

Comment by pvaldes | Hacker News Reader

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And this is not the end of the history. Would be naively opening the door to a full hell of pain.

Try to give one candy to calm a child having a tantrum in a room full of them and see what happens when the other children realize that crying, breaking toys and banging the head on the wall equals to be rewarded with sweets.

You allow somebody to break the law and jump over the constitution just because they are inconsolable otherwise. You fell in the trap. Now you must grant the same treatment to the rest. Similar referendums were demanded (and should have to be allowed in the very next day) for Euskadi, Galicia, Canary Islands, Asturias, Leon, Andalucia and only god knows what more. Two can play this game, and ten also.

The idea is not Germany allowing or not a referendum for Bavaria; or UK trying to please Scottland; the idea would be: you must now be forced to grant referendums for each single state in Deutschland or UK to make us happy "or we will stop breathing (and will create a permanent state of confrontation and street disturbs)".

So? If they want independence who are we to deny it?

If your spouse wants a divorce, if your children wish to disown you — you can't deny them just because it's an inconvenience — it is their right.

Countries are not people, they don't respect or love each other, they oscillate between peace and war. The history of every major nation is a history of violence and conquest, not freely entered union.

So, why deny independence? Because only the optics have changed, not the reality?

> Countries are not people, they don't respect or love each other, they oscillate between peace and war. The history of every major nation is a history of violence and conquest, not freely entered union.

IMO that has not been true for last 70 yrs. Point to me a war that has been People vs People.

The fact of the current world is People Are Sovereign. If some >=N people domiciled in continuous region wants self-determination, thats their human right.

I suspect that those who want to separate Catalonia from the rest of the country wouldn’t agree with the human right of the people in the Barcelona metropolitan are to choose by themselves their own future...

They do agree though. Barcelona, Aran, whatever. You name it.

Just start the political movement and it'll be respected. I think it's a fair ask.

It won't be respected by all, not even by all ERC politicians. Don't fall into the trap of thinking Catalonia is somehow free of hypocrites:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnMA7KdGxn0

Ok.

By the way, can I get your crystal ball? There's this lottery thing...

Your mocking argument is that only magicians can expect people to maintain their views?

My mocking argument is that you're making a wild guess.

Aran has its rights explicitly recognised by Catalan Parliament, including their self determination rights, right now: https://cat.elpais.com/cat/2015/01/23/catalunya/1422013790_5...

Rahola hasn't been a politician for decades. ERC is much better than it was with her and Angel Colom.

True, countries are not people. But you "optics, not reality has changed" argument is very abstract. What is this reality that means that they should not be allowed to vote?

This analogy is repeated again and again but is a bad example. A divorce is not "a right", is an agreement regulated by law between two previously married people to put a legal end to the relationship.

The true fact is that I can't divorce from my wife without her permit and she could not divorce from me without me agreeing to sign the divorce papers. Does not match the case of one part splitting unilaterally. A better term for this case would be marital abandonment, and a even better term would be family abuse. There is not such thing like a "right to desert your family keeping the house for yourself only".

Divorce is a right and it was a right that had to be fought for.

Historically, has the federal government pumped more resources into Catalonia than it extracted from it, or the other way around?

There's no federal government, it's not a federation.

Historically the central government has extracted money and resources from Catalonia. Catalonia was one of the first regions in Spain to develop its industry and definitely the strongest on that: https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolución_industrial_en_Esp...

These days it is widely accepted that the Catalan people send 16 billion per year to Spain that are never returned. That wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't because our infrastructures are underfunded and only around 35% of the budgeted investments were actually executed: http://www.elnacional.cat/es/politica/estado-ejecucion-infra...

But this is not just an economic grievance. The issue is way more complex and includes (but not restricted to) language, cultural and respect issues.

Edit: This comment is now at 0. Please argue instead of downvoting. You're breaking HN's rules.

Maybe it's not zero-sum

Sure, it probably is. But if that is the case, the answer is even more straight forward: Separation is okay.

> I can't divorce from my wife without her permit

What? You totally can, at least in most countries, as long as you can prove that your wife did something wrong. Can Catalunya prove that Spain did something wrong? Yeah: Franco.

Except the marriage (i.e. the constitution) came into place way after Franco; and the Catalans approved it with a humongous majority!

There are some exceptions and many different divorce laws, but the example obviously should be taken in a spanish context, and not trying to suggest that Catalonia (typically represented as the wife) was cheating to its partner Spain (typically represented as man and violent abuser) so she "has the right to go". Would be against their own discourse.

http://www.vozbcn.com/figura/2009/11/20091127nou.jpg

"Shouldn't your wife be allowed to divorce from you if she wants" with an implicit (because you abused it) would be, on the other hand, an extremely rude example. I don't think that this passive-agressive possibility was even in the mind of the people posting it.

Unlike a spouse which is one person with a single will and identity, it's not even clear how to decide who is Catalan enough to have a vote in this.

> it's not even clear how to decide who is Catalan enough to have a vote in this.

All residents in Catalonia have the right to vote in this referendum, regardless of their origin. So your comment is basically empty.

The fact that it is how this referendum was designed doesn't mean it's fair.

E.g. why would a foreigner that's been living in Catalonia for a few weeks, and plans to move away within a month to never return, have more of a say than a Catalan that spent 40 years there but had to move abroad two months ago in search of a job?

That's not how it works. You might want to read about it before having an opinion on a straw man.

For the record: Spaniards living in Catalonia for at least 6 months can vote. Foreigners can't, like in General or Regional elections.

I was basing it on what the parent commenter said. I can't really tell if he's in the wrong or you are because, as you said, I haven't looked it up myself.

Even with your version my fairness argument stands. How is it fair that a Catalan expat isn't allowed to vote, and an Andalusian that might be there just for a few months is? Expats are certainly allowed to vote in General elections.

I'm a Catalan expat and I voted already from where I am. There's a census of Spaniards living abroad. If you were there you could sign up to vote.

Ok that's better than if only currently-residing people were allowed to vote. The argument stands for Catalans living elsewhere in Spain.

But I grant that "you're allowed to vote if you can vote in the General elections as a resident of one of the four Catalan provinces" is probably as fair as one can practically get when designing this.

Catalans living elsewhere in Spain are out of luck, which seems to be due to current Estatut (if I read right) and I guess logistic challenges.

And if my children would want to commit suicide, steal and crash cars, or enter in a sect; who am I to deny them such reasonable demands?

... their loving father or something?

for Pete's sake, you, bad parent, they have rights!, and politicians that advise them well! Break the law, my minions, is funny (Specially to me, when I'll run with your money and deny to even know you... fools).

So you are arguing that this is solely for Cataluñas own sake and that they don't know themselves what they are doing so Spain must protect them?

I mean, at this point do we need to clarify? Yes, the commenter is a fascist and yes that is basically what they believe, although it would be more about the rule of law than any kind of protection.

Dunno... Is the duty of the government from your nation to protect you?.

(tip: the correct answer starts with Y, but not for the spurious reasons that you claim. Is because, as citizen of your country, you have some constitutional rights. No matter if you are super-smart or a frozen cabbage sending your 11yo children to a warfield). Any nation must try to protect their citizens all the time (even from themselves if were the case). Spain is not different in that sense to any other country. Sometimes is not possible, sadly.

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