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MikeHolman

>Facebook may very well end up in the majority's good graces with this move.

Really? They are doing the minimum possible to prevent an exodus from their stack after a public outcry.

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There was no sign of an exodus. That’s ludicrously hyperbolic.

Not at all. There was an exodus brewing. For starters:

https://ma.tt/2017/09/on-react-and-wordpress/

https://hacks.hyperspacer.com/app/items/15256532

An HN thread with a dozen responses? Hardly an exodus.

A quarter of all websites? An exodus.

Those websites weren't leaving, they never arrived..

They were close to arriving but they backtracked, all 25% of them. I'd call that an exodus before you even arrive.

If that's the definition then let me tell you about my exoduses from almost every country on the planet...

...of sites that posted on HN.

Projects that I work(ed) on that use React have no plans to switch away and aren't represented in that 25%.

That's not what I meant.

25% of sites on the Internet run WordPress. WordPress was rewriting its editor in React, but decided to switch away due to BSD+Patents.

Right so even then, its a bit weird to say that 25% of sites decided to not go with React, but actually 25% of sites (unknowingly) use software that decided not to go with React.

You're splitting hairs to reduce the significance of WP's stance.

No, he's not. He's pointing out that calling it an "exodus" implies that many individual projects have decided to abandon React. In this context WordPress is just one project, not "25% of all websites".

WordPress runs 25% of all websites. That is huge. You're trying to trivialize it as being "just one project" when it's really one of the most widely used and significant projects out there. One decision that WordPress makes is worth tens of thousands of decisions from much smaller projects that aren't used very widely. WordPress is a many billion dollar a year industry in itself, and whether it uses React or not will directly contribute to many thousands of web developers out there learning it or not.

You are trivializing the difference between "using" and "choosing". One is transitive, the other is not.

I'm saying that it doesn't much matter. WordPress is the largest player in the web platform ecosystem. The choices they make have huge consequences. Them choosing to use one library over another directly contributes to thousands of more developers using that library. The choice doesn't need to be transitive because developers using the platform don't have a choice of library -- they go along with whatever the platform people are using.

Nobody is disagreeing with you, you're just talking about something different than everyone else in this thread.

All of that is true but that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about individual projects who decided to abandon React -- not the influence of said projects.

You can't die if you were never alive to begin with

And yet a project can die before it's born

Does the decision to use React or not affect end users? Each WordPress site is not making an independent determination.

CNCF had begun the process of moving two internal projects (that will be open sourced when they hit beta) from React to Vue.js. We'll now re-evaluate.

FWIW, why we prefer Apache 2.0: https://www.cncf.io/blog/2017/02/01/cncf-recommends-aslv2/

You must have missed a lot of news. A personal example: in my company we were comparing React vs Vue internally and the hint of licensing issues committed us to Vue.

This Facebook post gives us hope for GraphQL moving away from BSD+, as it is currently in our stack, but without doubt we are considering a move away due to uncertainty.

The same thing happened at my company (Fortune 150 company). We settled on Vue too, and it has been amazing. But if this had happened back when we were considering things we probably would have gone with React.

Same here, this conversation is happening right now since we've built a pretty large application using React. I would much prefer to use React so this couldn't be better timing.

>In the wake of uncertainty about our license, we know that many teams went through the process of selecting an alternative library to React.

Evidently FB saw enough people leaving to prompt this change. No doubt they were also afraid of an exodus of their internal developers on these projects. High-profile developers will move on to companies where they know they'll have greater impact if that's seen to be at risk.

That's a strange claim given how many major projects have appeared on the front page of HN because of it, everything from the Apache foundation to Wordpress.

> everything from the Apache foundation to Wordpress.

Those were the only two.

WordPress accounts for something like 19% of all websites, more so than any other single platform. Do not underestimate the importance of their decision.

A bit higher, according to those who monitor these sorts of things.

Some 28.7% of sites use Wordpress.* Curiously, I've seen the 19% number being cited as 19% of all new websites use Wordpress. I'm not sure how 19% becomes 28.7%, but it may just be that sites using WP stick around longer.

* https://w3techs.com/technologies/details/cm-wordpress/all/al...

Only 2 that you know of. I work for a Fortune 150 company and we settled on Vue almost solely due to the licensing issue.

I too work for a Fortune 150 company and we've gone all in on React.

I'm told that one reason companies might have chosen to avoid React was that they could have imagined themselves be in competition with Facebook at some point, and thereby in the danger zone with their old BSD licence.

They explicitly said in their FAQ that you could use React even in direct competition. None of this matters now, of course, because it's been relicensed. The only impact the patents license ever had on anyone was iff they initiated a patent lawsuit against Facebook.

The point is that if you're in direct competition, the chances of Facebook violating one of your patents is much higher, and then your cost of suing them is significantly increased (since you also have to rewrite your app).

If you're ok with trusting a direct competitor not to misbehave, then sure, use React under those terms while competing with FB. But large companies consider their patent portfolio to be a significant strategic asset, so it shouldn't be surprising that their legal counsel advises against accepting such a clause.

Would the previous license have become relevant if Facebook initiated a patent lawsuit against you?

Even being on the back-foot when having to defend your patents, by refactoring React out of your application, was apparently damning enough for people to migrate.

Yeah, obviously not all lawyers see eye to eye.

Drupal was also close to picking a new library to replace or supplement Backbone, and React was just dropped out of the running (with a strong favor for Vue) a week or two ago.

We get it, React would have been fine with out them.

But it did matter.

It set a strong precedent.

Huh? Where have you been for the last month or two?

React is pretty popular already. FB only really needs to change the license to keep the growth.

Exactly.

React would have been fine, but to say the big players jumping ship didn't matter is just wrong.

This. FB is intentionally leaving a ton of their ecosystem with the PATENTS virus.

Theorizing, but I suspect FB will begin targeting and picking off IP of apps built entirely on React stacks in a few years.

Please don't go back to them. Just contribute to Vue's ecosystem like crazy. Worst case scenario it'll keep FB in check.

When has this ever happened?

there was no exodus, React is the number one javascript framework in the job market in Boston and probably other tech hubs too

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