Comment by monodeldiablo | Hacker News Reader

Comment by monodeldiablo | Hacker News Reader

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When I was dating a Croatian girl, I asked her which country reminded her most of pre-war Yugoslavia.

"Spain," she said, without skipping a beat. "It's eerily similar. All power and wealth flowing to the capital in the center of the country? Check. Generations-long repression of regional, cultural, and linguistic diversity? Check. Awkward tendency to rewrite history to avoid open discussion of WWII-era atrocities? Check. A staunch refusal by the central government to engage in meaningful dialogue with aggrieved regions and peoples? Check. Brutal repression of freedom of speech or demonstrations, inspiring ever-more-radical nationalism... All the ingredients are there."

"Nah," I said. "Spain's a stable republic! There's no way it'll descend into a Yugoslavia-style death fest."

She just arched her eyebrow. "War was unthinkable to us right up until the moment the JNA started shelling us. It's a miracle Spain's still one country, honestly."

The more I learn -- about both Yugoslavia and Spain -- the more I fear she was right.

"Brutal repression of freedom of speech or demonstrations" "Spain's a stable republic" It's saddens me to see so much ignorance and nonsense. Keeping aside that Spain is a monarchy, in today's Catalonia people have to fight for basic things like the right to educate their children in Spanish, mayors who do not support the referendum are being harrased by the radicals... that is a little example of the "oppresion" you talk about. They have pushed the government to the limit and they have to do something.

And why do you think that such radicalism has taken hold in Catalonia? Has it ever been thus, or could it possibly be in reaction to something...?

And do you think that the Spanish government's actions will encourage unity or fan the flames of separatism?

I think Catalan independence is a stupid idea, but you'd have to be pretty blinkered not to see the historical, ongoing heavy-handedness of the Spanish government in response to its regions. Countries responsive to their citizenry don't, as a general rule, have two or more internal states in which >30% of the population wants to secede.

That "radicalism" has nothing to do with centralism. It has to do with radical nationalism of peripherical regional parties. They control the media, the education, the funding of heavily subsized companies with public money for more than 35 years. Spain is a very decentralized country, closer to a federal model.

Right regional parties in Catalonia cannot keep on stealing from the public budget since the Great Recession. Their business model is over. They have to pivot to a new business model called "independence".

> They control the media, the education, the funding of heavily subsized companies with public money for more than 35 years

Like in the rest of Spain?

You didn't answer my question. People aren't born radical. And fringe regional parties don't come to control the media, education, and public purse without some significant measure of popular support.

So once again: Why do you think radical secession is even on the table? Why do you think Catalan nationalism has flared up in recent years? Why would any young person support Catalan independence if Spain's federal government is meeting their needs?

Answer that question honestly, and I think you'll realize where the problem is, and where the solution lies.

(Hint: It's not censoring websites, arresting ministers, or raiding the officials of regional bureaucrats.)

> in today's Catalonia people have to fight for basic things like the right to educate their children in Spanish

I don't think there's a right to be taught in the language of your choice, the same way you can't decide which subjects your children will study. At least not in Spain.

> mayors who do not support the referendum are being harrased by the radicals

Maybe you should look at what's happening to those supporting it.

That you can't even study in Spanish is only a little example about how reasonable is to talk about oppression.

The mayors who support the referendum are just being called to declare by the tribunals and being told that what they are supporting is illegal.

"I don't think there's a right to be taught in the language of your choice".

But there is the right. Is in the Spanish Constitution. Article 3.

For context for those interested, Article 3 of the Spanish Constitution says the following (translated into English):

"1. Castilian is the official Spanish language of the State. All Spaniards have the duty to know it and the right to use it. 2. The other Spanish languages shall also be official in the respective Autonomous Communities in accordance with their Statutes. 3. The wealth of the different language modalities of Spain is a cultural heritage which shall be the object of special respect and protection."

No, that article doesn't say that, that article says that Spanish must know Spanish language.

And if people holds sacred the contituion, the TC didn't invalidated the linguistic immersion, it is constitutional

> right to educate their children in Spanish

This is the kind of nonsense Catalans need to read every day from Spanish media.

100% of the children who finish secondary education in Catalonia are perfectly fluent in Catalan and Spanish.

What those people want is to prevent their kids from learning Catalan.

The amount lies, BS and bigotry that comes from unionists is amazing.

> 100% of the children who finish secondary education in Catalonia are perfectly fluent in Catalan and Spanish.

This is debatable, specially in ortography. There is always room to improve; and it seems that parents here and there demand more hours taught in spanish at the school since years. Those are just normal people that want the best for their children and have to fill the educational gaps at home, not politicians.

On the other hand, isn't "Unionist" a peculiar word to refer to your neighbours?

> On the other hand, isn't "Unionist" a peculiar word to refer to your neighbours?

Independentist is the person who would prefer Catalonia being an independent state.

Unionist is the person who wants Catalonia to stay united with Spain.

I think that both terms are quite neutral. Do you have any idea for a better terminology?

> This is debatable, specially in orthography.

I guess that you are aware that there's an annual exam that assesses the knowledge level in several subjects (PISA). The result of this test shows, year after year, that the knowledge of Spanish language of the Catalan kids is slightly over the average of the country; and quite higher than many other regions that are Spanish monolingual.

Yugoslavia and Spain has nothing to do. For a start, we are a Monarchy .

Maybe you should start with the basics about European history. Yugoslavia had a terrible civil war and they broke in pieces. There was no reason to keep on together. Spain had a more terrible civil war and Spain still exists as it was before.

The history of Catalonia says that they have never really fought for independence. They are always looking for economical benefits. Except anarchist which I think they really want to shock the system, the new-born "Indepes" will never stand up in arms to fight for the independence of Catalonia.

> Maybe you should start with the basics about European history.

Don't condescend to me. I live in what was Yugoslavia. And that terrible civil war? I spend my days surrounded by its victims. None of them saw it coming. Nobody did until it was too late.

> Spain had a more terrible civil war and Spain still exists as it was before.

"More terrible"? By what measure? Half as many Spaniards died during the Spanish Civil War as were killed in the Yugoslav theatre during the same period. By the 1970s, the result was the same in both cases: A powerful federal state, ruled by a dictator, comprised of areas with strong regional identities.

And in the most recent Yugoslav Wars? Sure, fewer people died than in Spain, but only because over four million fled. That's almost ten times as many displaced people as in the Spanish Civil War. Don't pretend that Spain has a monopoly on suffering or is somehow special.

> The history of Catalonia says that they have never really fought for independence.

Historians (and Serbs) said the same thing about Croatians and Slovenes right up until they walked out of the constitutional congress.

I could go on...

Listen, one of us is definitely ignorant of history, but it ain't me. I strongly suggest you read up on the events preceding the Yugoslav Wars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_Wars#Background

I think you'll find the parallels disconcerting.

If you have such a huge knowledge how come you haven't mentioned a particular HUGE difference between Spain and Yugoslavia. In Yugoslavia one of the main reasons of the war and secession was RELIGION, in Spain there's no such clash between muslims and catholics.

Religion had little to do with it until after Slovenia and Croatia seceded. Religious and ethnic reasons were bolted on ex post facto to drum up popular support for what was, originally, an economic and politic dispute over increased autonomy.

The country that looks most likely to split (in Europe) to me is Belgium, not Spain.

But then predicting geopolitical changes is the same as predicting Black Swans: the Berlin wall will stand forever right until the moment it wont; The Soviet Union is just there until it is no more; nothing can stand the Nazi war machine; those scrappy colonists have no chance against the English empire.

Really? My take is that Flemings and Walloons don't really understand each other but are happy staying in their own half of the country. Who would get Brussels in a split?

Brusselards

Nit... Spain's not a republic

Yugoslavia and Spain are two different scenarios entirely.

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