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Comment by hectorlorenzo | Hacker News Reader

I'm from Barcelona so I'm probably biased, but I still can't understand how holding a referendum can be illegal in a modern democracy. I'm asking honestly, this is not rhetorical.

Some say that Catalunya can't decide whether they want to be a country, and I don't understand that neither. This is like saying that Brexit should have been voted by all Europeans. Is there any legal technicality that I'm missing?

I guess that a country is more sovereign over their regions than the EU over their members, but still...

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The government of Catalonia can hold a referendum following the Law. The problem here is that the government of Catalonia is not following even their own regional laws approved by them, not to mention the Spanish Constitution.

The secessionists have even forbidden the opposition to participate in the debates in the Parliament of Catalonia.

Edit to add: it is not the same a country willing to participate in an union and then deciding to leave it, than a movement in a nation (Spain) where some people in there decide they want to transform a part of Spain in an independent nation.

Remember also that Catalonia has never been a nation.

You should explain this in a main comment that hopefully gets upvoted to the top.

Done, thank you for the advice.

Not true. It's a troll comment from unionism.

Then refute it. That's how speech works.

Saying "it's wrong" is meaningless.

Seeing how things are going for a REFERENDUM, do you think they will ever allow catalans to make a legal referendum as long as we are in Spain?

That's not true. Catalonia had been a nation since before Spain. Catalan government is just trying to do a referendum to check if independence makes sense. Spanish gov is affraid of checking it because they know what can happen. On Spanish history there is a rule.. saying that Barcelona had to be attacked with bombs from time to time to have them quiet.

See? That's the problem. If you truly believe this lie "Catalonia had been a nation since before Spain" then you've decided to close your eyes to History, and there's nothing I can say to change your mind.

I think you had studied only the Spanish history O_O. You need to look for alandulus, la marca hispana and països catalans at Google... :)

You have called me troll in another comment but when someone ask for reputable sources your answer is 'google it'.

I'm from Barcelona so I'm probably biased

There are about half of the population of Catalonia that doesn't agree with you.

but I still can't understand how holding a referendum can be illegal in a modern democracy.

This is not a referendum to ask about sideways width. It's about asking people if they want to commit a crime: secession.

Some say that Catalunya can't decide whether they want to be a country, and I don't understand that neither

It's very simple. Constitution says that sovereignty is in the nation as a whole, so a part of the nation can't simply vote to leave. That's the case for most civilized countries, so hardly a surprise.

This is like saying that Brexit should have been voted by all Europeans.

No, it's not. You are comparing denouncing an international treaty with trying to overcome the government.

Is there any legal technicality that I'm missing?

No, you are missing the elephant in the room.

What about the Scottish Referendum then?

UK is an union of countries. Spain is not.

Different countries, different histories, different legal traditions. Scotland is a nation in the British Commonwealth, not a province (shire) of the nation of England. Aragon and Catalonia did not follow the same pattern.

Catalonia had been a nation since the 10th century. Spanish gov doesn't want a referendum because their are afraid on loose....

Yes, England retained the nationalities of the kingdoms it absorbed and became a multinational state, whereas Spain followed more absolutist traditions and wanted not just fealty but complete assimilation. Scotland remained a nation after regal unification, whereas the nationhood of Catalonia is past tense, and therefore secession has significantly different legal ramifications in their respective empires.

The problem is that for spainyards Catalonia is just the old and rich colony. And they want to continue plunde it :(

If you look at a map you will understand the reason for why spain wants to hide and prevent a referendum.

When was Catalonia colonized? Where did the settlers come from?

Catalonia has never been a nation.

"Catalonia had been a nation since the 10th century."

Again, if you believe that fantasy is true, is impossible to open your eyes to reality.

Please, point to a reputable source.

> There are about half of the population of Catalonia that doesn't agree with you.

By the way, polls show that people in favor of having a referendum is majority. A lot of people agree to have a referendum when they themselves would vote no to independence. They are different things

> This is not a referendum to ask about sideways width. It's about asking people if they want to commit a crime: secession.

Secession is a crime? Tried Scotland or Quebec to commit a crime?

Czech Republic and Slovakia are criminals?

Secession is a crime? Tried Scotland or Quebec to commit a crime? Czech Republic and Slovakia are criminals?

I'm not opposed to the referendum, but those places are not under the rule of the Spanish constitution.

You have to consider the circumstances under which the Spanish Constitution was written. Franco had died, and after years of dictatorship and repression, the government was afraid of exactly this: separatism.

So I guess that as a concession to the still strong fascist powers, the Constitution stated that is a crime to attempt to break the "the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation".

This doesn't make sense in the 21st century, I think, but that's the way it is.

Guess what part of Spain voted massively yes to the current constitution.

Please, don't try to rewrite History.

The Spanish Constitution is based in a very broad agreement, from Communists to the Far-Right Wing.

Then that agreement (the Constitution) was voted by all the Spanish People and received an immense support.

See the table here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_constitutional_referen...

The Spanish people voted yes to democracy, not to the constitution. The communist party supported it because it feared continuing to be illegal otherwise, and it is an issue that still causes them a lot of division.

My generation did not vote for the constitution, and many of us dislike it. I agree that it is a conservative constitution made out of fear, with a flawed electoral system, a king, etc. The same fear that the party in power, lineage of the dictators, uses to address our aging population.

"Mejor malo conocido que bueno por conocer" (Better a known bad than the good that is jet to be known) is the worst Spanish saying.

I am Andalusian and pro-referendum.

The Spanish people voted yes to democracy, not to the constitution.

Please don't spread misinformation.

You're confusing the referendum for politic reform of 1976 with the constitution of 1978. BOTH were voted in national referendum by free, direct and secret vote.

If you were suggesting that people didn't vote freely because fear, you are wrong.

My generation did not vote for the constitution, and many of us dislike it.

That's OK. There are, in the constitution itself a sort of ways to ammend it. If you have enough votes, you can do mostly everything.

I don't see a contradiction with GP post. As part of this broad agreement, the right and center-right forces request of indivisibility of Spain was included in the Constitution.

After Franco death, the first party to win a free election, and by majority, was a center party (UCD).

Every major party wanted indivisibility of Spain, including the PCE or Communist Party of Spain.

So please don't try to sell the territorial indivisibility as a right or center-right thing.

Secession is a crime?

You are confusing two meanings of the word. There is the meaning of breaking a country for whatever reasons. Like Sudan, or the USSR or Yugoslavia. There is another meaning: the crime of secession that tries to break a country by force and against its legitimate authorities, that often ends in a blood bath.

First meaning is not the same as the second.

You're missing the case of trying to break the country by force against its illegitimate authorities, otherwise how would you classify East Timor?

OK. The thing is there's nothing illegitimate in this case. Spanish authorities have full legitimacy. We are a standard democracy, integrated in EU and NATO since the eighties, our ellections are clean and our 1978 constitution was widely praised at the time for being a cornerstone of national reconcilliation.

The national government is held by PP, a right-wing party where a lot of corruption cases surfaced recently. There is much pressure about this, but the reality is that the prime minister was voted by a majority of parliament, so...

On the other hand, the referendum organizers voted it in an illegitimate regional parlament session. The regional president's party has been also corrupted to the roots. They were trying to hide it all behind all this adventure.

The elephant in the room being?

The elephant in the room being?

The elephant in the room is what I just wrote. A referendum to vote to commit a crime is a crime. And secession is not a walk in the park. Spanish government passivity might have given that impression, but at some moment, it seems to be now, things will start to get very serious.

I repeat, why secession is a crime?

By Spanish law secession is a crime. We can argue if it should be a crime. I think it shouldn't.

Because it violates the Spanish constitution as ruled by Spanish courts (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/02/catalonia-sece...).

The follow up argument is the government has the power to amend the constitution but it currently has no interest in doing so. If Catalans want to secede they must first convince their (national) politicians to amend the consitution to make secession legal and then hold a referendum on secession itself.

There are about half of the population of Catalonia that doesn't agree with you.

They don't agree with independence, or with having a referendum at all? Just curious, I haven't been following it closely.

With independence. There are some more that want the referendum, but frankly I think that's silly.

When a lot of corruption cases started to arise a few years ago, the local govern party had to ally with a far left separatist organization that demanded the referendum. So here we are.

I'm generally aware of the shadiness, but lots of things have sordid origins, I don't think that's a definitive argument against it. Corruption in politics is unfortunately not exactly a rare occurrence here in the Iberian Peninsula.

The elephant in the room is that the main parties in the Spanish goverment are using this independence process as a smokescreen to hide all their wrongdoings.

There have been plenty of scandals, but all are hidden because of this.

Also there is a complete blockage to alter the constitution and there's no negotiation on their part to open the process and make it more inclusive. They are using Catalans as scapegoats in order to win votes in other regions, as they have always done.

I'm seriously tired of being treated, by the Spanish press -guided by the main parties-, as an insolidary nutjob that doesn't conform to the rules. Specially when Catalonia is one of the most solidary regions (giving more to the state than we receive). But we are "guilty" of speaking another language, of thinking differently, of voting differently, of whatever shit they dare accuse us.

I'm sick of it all.

And I'm not into politics, so I cannot fathom how burned are the people that are into politics.

Ah, yes, I completely agree with you. I haven't been living in Spain for some time now, and every time I go back I'm horrified by the tension between Catalonia and the rest of Spain. It's like a mild Civil War all over again.

The worst is the unspoken tension that this has created between me and my Spanish friends.

It is worse the tension between Catalans.

I agree with you. Im southern Spanish who lived and studied in Barcelona. Have lots of very good friends in Catalunya who somehow I'm loosing because of this situation.

I'm quite sad :(

> The elephant in the room is that the main parties in the Spanish goverment are using this independence process as a smokescreen to hide all their wrongdoings.

Don't forget PDECAT, for them it is also a smokescreen

"The elephant in the room is that the main parties in the Spanish goverment are using this independence process as a smokescreen to hide all their wrongdoings."

That's some assumption, considering the main party promoting the secession had their party HQ confiscated for their corruption.

"Also there is a complete blockage to alter the constitution"

No, there isn't. There is a perfect legal form to do it.

"Catalonia is one of the most solidary regions (giving more to the state than we receive)."

No, it WAS. Now the rest of Spain is supporting Catalonia using the FLA ("Fondo de Liquidez Autonómica" or "Autonomous Liquidity Fund").

"I'm sick of it all."

More sick are the majority of Catalans who don't want the secession.

> More sick are the majority of Catalans who don't want the secession.

Nobody knows if they are a majority or not. At least, unless they can vote about it, of course.

And please, don't give me polls.

While in the process:

Audiencia Nacional does not approve of confronting Spanish president with of the main conspirators detained for illegal funding of their party. [0]

An Hacienda (taxes) expert finding clues about this illegal funding. [1]

Ex president of Castilla la Mancha's regional goverment dies before testifying in a corruption case [2]. There have been lots of deaths of people about to testify in diferent corruption cases.[3]

75% of the money the goverment put to rescue the banks is now considered as lost.[4]

"They report that there are 38% of severely dependent and large dependents without attending"[5]

And some other things that are debatable (and some that are not. I'm not negating that the governing party in Catalonia has been corrupt too, if it were for me lots of current and past politicians should be in jail.

> "Also there is a complete blockage to alter the constitution"

> No, there isn't. There is a perfect legal form to do it.

Yes, a way that is completely impossible right now. Specially because it depends on who has majority in the goverment, and those in power use FUD to keep being in power.

>Now the rest of Spain is supporting Catalonia using the FLA ("Fondo de Liquidez Autonómica" or "Autonomous Liquidity Fund").

I had to search what FLA is. That is a credit line that can be used by regional goverments [6]. That means it has to be payed back.

Catalonia is the region that most money brings to the table with 18.9%, more than even Madrid with 18.8% (2016)[7] But it's not he one with more investment (12.78% if you run the numbers)[8].

>More sick are the majority of Catalans who don't want the secession.

I didn't want independence, but I now want it, thanks to the words and actions of centralist people and politics. If you are saying that the majority doesn't want it because in 11 september's parade there was only 1 milion people and there are 6.5 milion more that weren't there... that doesn't compute (I wasn't there either).

[0]http://www.eldiario.es/politica/Audiencia-Nacional-Barcenas-...

[1]http://www.publico.es/politica/gurtel-perito-hacienda-confir...

[2]http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2017/09/07/59b0fab8ca47418b038b...

[3]http://www.abc.es/espana/abci-muertes-y-suicidios-larga-list...

[4]http://www.elmundo.es/economia/2017/09/07/59b1092e22601dad19...

[5]http://dependencia.es/denuncian-que-hay-un-38-de-dependiente...

[6]https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fons_de_Liquiditat_Auton%C3%B2...

[7]http://www.elnacional.cat/ca/economia/catalunya-economia-esp...

[8]http://www.elmundo.es/economia/macroeconomia/2017/04/04/58e3...

EDIT:

Sorry, I didn't (and don't) have time to search for links in English. They are all in Spanish but one, that it's in Catalan (but has Spanish and German translation).

If there was any innacuracy in this post I'd rather have conversation than untold negativity.

> The elephant in the room is that the main parties in the Spanish goverment are using this independence process as a smokescreen to hide all their wrongdoings.

True, but at the same time, it was the Catalan Government who started the secession process, and they have plenty of corruption to hide too. And if they manage to become an independent country with their own judicial system, then they might get away with all the past corruption. Maybe that's the actual motivation.

That's not clear that there is a 50 % of people that don't want the independence, and anyway the referendum is the only way to check if the independence is the way for the majority.

I am reminded of (fake) Franklin quote in the movie 1776:

A rebellion is always legal in the first person, such as "our rebellion." It is only in the third person - "their rebellion" - that it becomes illegal.

Freedom and liberty is usually opposed through legalism. I think the desire for self-determination is just and admirable.

Then explain me why the same arguments to separate Catalonia from Spain can't be applied to separate Barcelona from Catalonia.

Why not?

Is Barcelona people demanding it?

It's explicitly forbidden in the (illegal) new law the Parliament of Catalonia is trying to impose.

Just because one supports the referendum doesn't mean one supports anything else the Parliament of Catalonia is doing, though.

This is the next step ;)

Then explain me why the same arguments to separate Barcelona from Catalonia can't be applied to separate my house from Barcelona.

Look at it from this point:

I'm an spanish citizen thereby granted to have free access to all national territory. If just catalan people is allowed to vote, then they are depriving me, and other spanish citizens, from the right to freely visit/live/work in catalonia.

Is not only that. The article 1.2 of the Spanish Constitution clearly states: "The national sovereignty resides in the Spanish people, from whom all the powers of the state emanate."

All Spanish people have the right to decide about all the things in Spain, not just a bunch of people.

The same way you choose to divorce with somebody. You don’t let your partner choose whether he lets you break up with him/her or not.

If some workers had followed the law maybe you would still work for 12 hours and a shitty salary (now that i think... this still aplies now)

Yeah, try to get a divorce without respecting the Law.

You are mixing apples with pears. Some people are willing to take possession of a piece of land that is not theirs.

OK. I will try. I am a EU citizen thereby granted to have free access to all EU territory. If just UK people is allowed to vote, then they are depriving me, and other EU citizens, from the right to freely visit/live/work in UK.

That right that you are claiming about is not granted with the EU citizenship BUT IT IS with the spanish citizenship.

I'm not sure if I follow you. EU citizens have the right to freely access the whole EU territory for work/visit/capital, anything. In fact, that's what the EU is about; freedom to move people or money.

The same way your wife wants to divorce you and you don’t have a word about it.

Who deprives you from working, living and visiting Catalonia?

If catalonia becomes a country then border laws apply...

Spain is divided by autonomias (comunidades autonomas). You can vote wherever you're registered to vote, nowhere else. I can't vote on issues in Extremadura or Valencia because I'm not registered in there.

I understand this affects Spain as a whole, so after the vote there should be a proper discussion rather than direct secession action (IF that were the result). But this question is regional, the rest of Spain doesn't decide if they want to live in an independent Catalonia state, because they don't live in there.

I'm from Crimea and I don't get this either.

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