Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT office
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Before the weekend, the Spanish Judicial System gave a warning to anyone who helps spreading material about the referendum, or is involved in any way. Catalans are still pushing forward to hold the vote on the 1st of October. This lead to this morning's arrests of mayors around Catalunya. And now, Spanish Judicial System decided that the organization behind the .cat TLD is somehow involved in the referendum as well.
Previously on "Catalunya VS Spain" also includes Spanish Judicial System taking down informational websites about the referendum, such as http://referendum.pirata.cat (which is a mirror of the one which existed on http://referendum.cat but is now shut down)
Some say that Catalunya can't decide whether they want to be a country, and I don't understand that neither. This is like saying that Brexit should have been voted by all Europeans. Is there any legal technicality that I'm missing?
I guess that a country is more sovereign over their regions than the EU over their members, but still...
The secessionists have even forbidden the opposition to participate in the debates in the Parliament of Catalonia.
Edit to add: it is not the same a country willing to participate in an union and then deciding to leave it, than a movement in a nation (Spain) where some people in there decide they want to transform a part of Spain in an independent nation.
Remember also that Catalonia has never been a nation.
Saying "it's wrong" is meaningless.
There are about half of the population of Catalonia that doesn't agree with you.
but I still can't understand how holding a referendum can be illegal in a modern democracy.
This is not a referendum to ask about sideways width. It's about asking people if they want to commit a crime: secession.
Some say that Catalunya can't decide whether they want to be a country, and I don't understand that neither
It's very simple. Constitution says that sovereignty is in the nation as a whole, so a part of the nation can't simply vote to leave. That's the case for most civilized countries, so hardly a surprise.
This is like saying that Brexit should have been voted by all Europeans.
No, it's not. You are comparing denouncing an international treaty with trying to overcome the government.
Is there any legal technicality that I'm missing?
No, you are missing the elephant in the room.
There have been plenty of scandals, but all are hidden because of this.
Also there is a complete blockage to alter the constitution and there's no negotiation on their part to open the process and make it more inclusive. They are using Catalans as scapegoats in order to win votes in other regions, as they have always done.
I'm seriously tired of being treated, by the Spanish press -guided by the main parties-, as an insolidary nutjob that doesn't conform to the rules. Specially when Catalonia is one of the most solidary regions (giving more to the state than we receive). But we are "guilty" of speaking another language, of thinking differently, of voting differently, of whatever shit they dare accuse us.
I'm sick of it all.
And I'm not into politics, so I cannot fathom how burned are the people that are into politics.
That's some assumption, considering the main party promoting the secession had their party HQ confiscated for their corruption.
"Also there is a complete blockage to alter the constitution"
No, there isn't. There is a perfect legal form to do it.
"Catalonia is one of the most solidary regions (giving more to the state than we receive)."
No, it WAS. Now the rest of Spain is supporting Catalonia using the FLA ("Fondo de Liquidez Autonómica" or "Autonomous Liquidity Fund").
"I'm sick of it all."
More sick are the majority of Catalans who don't want the secession.
Audiencia Nacional does not approve of confronting Spanish president with of the main conspirators detained for illegal funding of their party. [0]
An Hacienda (taxes) expert finding clues about this illegal funding. [1]
Ex president of Castilla la Mancha's regional goverment dies before testifying in a corruption case [2]. There have been lots of deaths of people about to testify in diferent corruption cases.[3]
75% of the money the goverment put to rescue the banks is now considered as lost.[4]
"They report that there are 38% of severely dependent and large dependents without attending"[5]
And some other things that are debatable (and some that are not. I'm not negating that the governing party in Catalonia has been corrupt too, if it were for me lots of current and past politicians should be in jail.
> "Also there is a complete blockage to alter the constitution"
> No, there isn't. There is a perfect legal form to do it.
Yes, a way that is completely impossible right now. Specially because it depends on who has majority in the goverment, and those in power use FUD to keep being in power.
>Now the rest of Spain is supporting Catalonia using the FLA ("Fondo de Liquidez Autonómica" or "Autonomous Liquidity Fund").
I had to search what FLA is. That is a credit line that can be used by regional goverments [6]. That means it has to be payed back.
Catalonia is the region that most money brings to the table with 18.9%, more than even Madrid with 18.8% (2016)[7] But it's not he one with more investment (12.78% if you run the numbers)[8].
>More sick are the majority of Catalans who don't want the secession.
I didn't want independence, but I now want it, thanks to the words and actions of centralist people and politics. If you are saying that the majority doesn't want it because in 11 september's parade there was only 1 milion people and there are 6.5 milion more that weren't there... that doesn't compute (I wasn't there either).
[0]http://www.eldiario.es/politica/Audiencia-Nacional-Barcenas-...
[1]http://www.publico.es/politica/gurtel-perito-hacienda-confir...
[2]http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2017/09/07/59b0fab8ca47418b038b...
[3]http://www.abc.es/espana/abci-muertes-y-suicidios-larga-list...
[4]http://www.elmundo.es/economia/2017/09/07/59b1092e22601dad19...
[5]http://dependencia.es/denuncian-que-hay-un-38-de-dependiente...
[6]https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fons_de_Liquiditat_Auton%C3%B2...
[7]http://www.elnacional.cat/ca/economia/catalunya-economia-esp...
[8]http://www.elmundo.es/economia/macroeconomia/2017/04/04/58e3...
EDIT:
Sorry, I didn't (and don't) have time to search for links in English. They are all in Spanish but one, that it's in Catalan (but has Spanish and German translation).
If there was any innacuracy in this post I'd rather have conversation than untold negativity.
Nobody knows if they are a majority or not. At least, unless they can vote about it, of course.
And please, don't give me polls.
True, but at the same time, it was the Catalan Government who started the secession process, and they have plenty of corruption to hide too. And if they manage to become an independent country with their own judicial system, then they might get away with all the past corruption. Maybe that's the actual motivation.
The worst is the unspoken tension that this has created between me and my Spanish friends.
I'm quite sad :(
Don't forget PDECAT, for them it is also a smokescreen
A rebellion is always legal in the first person, such as "our rebellion." It is only in the third person - "their rebellion" - that it becomes illegal.
They don't agree with independence, or with having a referendum at all? Just curious, I haven't been following it closely.
When a lot of corruption cases started to arise a few years ago, the local govern party had to ally with a far left separatist organization that demanded the referendum. So here we are.
By the way, polls show that people in favor of having a referendum is majority. A lot of people agree to have a referendum when they themselves would vote no to independence. They are different things
> This is not a referendum to ask about sideways width. It's about asking people if they want to commit a crime: secession.
Secession is a crime? Tried Scotland or Quebec to commit a crime?
Czech Republic and Slovakia are criminals?
So I guess that as a concession to the still strong fascist powers, the Constitution stated that is a crime to attempt to break the "the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation".
This doesn't make sense in the 21st century, I think, but that's the way it is.
The Spanish Constitution is based in a very broad agreement, from Communists to the Far-Right Wing.
Then that agreement (the Constitution) was voted by all the Spanish People and received an immense support.
See the table here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_constitutional_referen...
Every major party wanted indivisibility of Spain, including the PCE or Communist Party of Spain.
So please don't try to sell the territorial indivisibility as a right or center-right thing.
My generation did not vote for the constitution, and many of us dislike it. I agree that it is a conservative constitution made out of fear, with a flawed electoral system, a king, etc. The same fear that the party in power, lineage of the dictators, uses to address our aging population.
"Mejor malo conocido que bueno por conocer" (Better a known bad than the good that is jet to be known) is the worst Spanish saying.
I am Andalusian and pro-referendum.
Please don't spread misinformation.
You're confusing the referendum for politic reform of 1976 with the constitution of 1978. BOTH were voted in national referendum by free, direct and secret vote.
If you were suggesting that people didn't vote freely because fear, you are wrong.
My generation did not vote for the constitution, and many of us dislike it.
That's OK. There are, in the constitution itself a sort of ways to ammend it. If you have enough votes, you can do mostly everything.
I'm not opposed to the referendum, but those places are not under the rule of the Spanish constitution.
You are confusing two meanings of the word. There is the meaning of breaking a country for whatever reasons. Like Sudan, or the USSR or Yugoslavia. There is another meaning: the crime of secession that tries to break a country by force and against its legitimate authorities, that often ends in a blood bath.
First meaning is not the same as the second.
The national government is held by PP, a right-wing party where a lot of corruption cases surfaced recently. There is much pressure about this, but the reality is that the prime minister was voted by a majority of parliament, so...
On the other hand, the referendum organizers voted it in an illegitimate regional parlament session. The regional president's party has been also corrupted to the roots. They were trying to hide it all behind all this adventure.
If you look at a map you will understand the reason for why spain wants to hide and prevent a referendum.
Again, if you believe that fantasy is true, is impossible to open your eyes to reality.
Please, point to a reputable source.
The elephant in the room is what I just wrote. A referendum to vote to commit a crime is a crime. And secession is not a walk in the park. Spanish government passivity might have given that impression, but at some moment, it seems to be now, things will start to get very serious.
The follow up argument is the government has the power to amend the constitution but it currently has no interest in doing so. If Catalans want to secede they must first convince their (national) politicians to amend the consitution to make secession legal and then hold a referendum on secession itself.
Is Barcelona people demanding it?
I'm an spanish citizen thereby granted to have free access to all national territory. If just catalan people is allowed to vote, then they are depriving me, and other spanish citizens, from the right to freely visit/live/work in catalonia.
All Spanish people have the right to decide about all the things in Spain, not just a bunch of people.
If some workers had followed the law maybe you would still work for 12 hours and a shitty salary (now that i think... this still aplies now)
Who deprives you from working, living and visiting Catalonia?
I understand this affects Spain as a whole, so after the vote there should be a proper discussion rather than direct secession action (IF that were the result). But this question is regional, the rest of Spain doesn't decide if they want to live in an independent Catalonia state, because they don't live in there.
We do have a formal one. In practice that is not so clear, as the many corruption cases show, with political use of the police included.
Also they not only have declared the referendum illegal, but are persecuting everyone promoting the referendum, so much for freedom of speech. But anyways, now you get into a criminal trial for making jokes about terrorist actions from 40 years ago against Franco ministers.
I am Andalusian and I'd be happy to keep Catalonian withing the Spanish state, under a federalist republic where we can move forward together. But in the current state of affairs I very much understand the independentist movement. Having a referendum is the only solution long-term and the Spanish goverment just uses legalist excuses to stop it. What they don't say is that precisely they can change the law to allow it!
I would agree that there is some leakage, but it is the exception to the rule. I would not make such a generalization.
>>> Also they not only have declared the referendum illegal
They have suspended the law that would allow the Catalonian goverment promote the referendum, so it is indeed illegal to promote the referendum.
>>> I am Andalusian and I'd be happy to keep Catalonian withing the Spanish state
Me too. I am Andalusian too.
That's a pretty bold statement. Maybe you should provide some evidence.
Now it's even more illegal.
Edit: to the people downvoting this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_self-determination_ref...
Also, see the (potentially biased) en.Wikipedia article on the referendum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendu...
The reality, however, it's different:
- Catalonia is a rich, privileged region of Spain, which has benefited enormously of a huge investment in infraestructure and industry in the last decades.
- The indepentist movement was fueled around outright xenophobia, accusing the central government of "stealing" Catalonians, attacking poorer regions of Spain (which are full of lazy, untrustworthy people).
- In the last years, the Catalonian government has shaped their citizen perception of history, promoting nonsense like "Catalonia is a colony of Spain". An easy to disprove, but widely repeated argument.
- The Catalonian government even forbade the use of Spanish to their civil servants. Which was fined by the EU.
For a long time, state politic parties and catalonian parties, profited from this absurd "us against them" scenario. Now it's really out of hand, and the central government has a lot of blame in this.
But I really failed to see why someone should have any sympathy for Catalonian independentism. It's certainly not based on any historical reality, their political and economic consequences are unpredictable (but I doubt that benefitial for anyone other than catalonian politicians) and it's illegal under any possible frame.
I guess you could justify it if you believe in this abstract right to self-determination. I personally would have held a referendum long ago. I still think it's both stupid and immoral (it's usually the rich regions that want independence, with similar arguments).
As far as I have been able to see, they are not in any way xenophobic, or greedy, or anything else you're accusing them of here. What they do seem to be is very distinctly Catalan with their own culture, history and language, and significant grievances towards the Spanish state.
I don't have an opinion on their independence, but I do find it very hard to justify denying them a right to vote on it. I do suspect the optimal way would be to negotiate a new relationship with Catalonia inside Spain, but that's just my mostly uninformed two cents on the issue.
(This is just to give the other side of the argument here.)
The region of Catalonia has a lot of independence inside Spain, similar to a federal state. They however say that "Madrid oppress them"; that is simply nonsense, all Catalan citizens, as Spanish citizens, and as EU citizens, has the same rights ( and obligations ) as Madrid citizens.
The constitution they disregard openly, has a section that explicit protects their language as part of our collective culture ( source in spanish: http://www.congreso.es/consti/constitucion/indice/titulos/ar... )
The referendum they are pushing, has not guaranties, they even don't have an official census, so anyone can vote several times in different places. Even if I were pro-independence, I wouldn't like a referendum like that.
They say openly all the time that the rest of Spain steal from them. Yes, they pay taxes ( as all the Spanish citizens ), and seems that paying taxes ( using the same laws as the rest of Spain ) is stealing. I won't say this is xenophobic or greedy, but there something clearly wrong with that argument.
Spain is (in practice, not in theory) a very asymmetric federation of states. Catalonia has its own police, prison system, education, healthcare and a big long list. What it does , it's not control over its budget. The threat of independentism has been used as leverage against the government for decades. When the catalonian government was investigated for corruption, they party in power (until that moment, unionist) became the "Leader" of independentism.
Spanish central government is not free of blame (quite the opposite). First, it has always: a) Caved to the demands of catalonian politicians in exchange for their support for the central government b) Attacked catalonians as a way of winning votes against the most conservative voters.
This was all theater, as all parties in power were extremely similar. Now the situation has spinned out of control by a series of different factors: - Disenchantment with the corrupt central government (though the catalonian wasn't better)
- Very biased education about the history of Catalonia
- Catalonian conservatives using it as a smokescreen to hide corruption.
- Left wing parties not minding this (as independence seems to be an issue above everything else)
I support their right to decide but at the same time I feel that the way this has been managed by both Catalan and Spanish governments is not going to have a good outcome :(
On the other side I always had the feeling that this is just politicians willing to use this situation for their own benefit and raise votes. Instead of creating a peaceful dialogue (both sides) they just prefer to keep with the same story over and over creating more and more hate between different parts of the country...
It comes to my mind a book by Chomsky (Media Control) that suggest how US has created always an enemy to have the country united and the support of the people.
Borders..... such a colonial western invention and all the problems they have created.....
The government of Catalonia can hold a referendum following the Law. The problem here is that the government of Catalonia is not following even their own regional laws approved by them, not to mention the Spanish Constitution.
The secessionists have even forbidden the opposition to participate in the debates in the Parliament of Catalonia.
Remember also that Catalonia has never been a nation.
Also, can you add some references to some of the more polemical claims (like "The secessionists have even forbidden the opposition to participate in the debates in the Parliament of Catalonia.").
Thanks!
The session was televised. The oposition was constantly interrupted and not allowed to talk. They are not even respecting the laws from the catalonian parlament. But I guess they have legitimacy because they have the support of... half the catalonians?
An example of democracy.
That's more than any party in the national parliament :)
Apart from pointing that out, is anything of what it says inaccurate?
And we have interruptions in every other session of both the Spanish and Catalan Parliaments, from all political spectrum. That's what makes Spanish politics so amusing.
I have to say though that it'll be hard to find a partial accounting of the story, given the state of Spanish media.
It is true that Catalonia has never been a country, contrary to the rhetoric of the Catalan nationalists.
On the other hand, should it matter? If it did then new countries could never be formed.
Of course, you have to consider that after almost 40 years of a fascist dictatorship, anything that resembled a democratic constitution was good news, so 90% of Catalans voted in favor of these Constitution.
This is the main reason why, according to the current Constitution, the current referendum is illegal.
Since all banks today work with fractional reserve banking, banks in Catalonia depend on the European Central Bank to keep their ATMs running. If Catalonia became an independent country and the ECB decided to cut Catalonia out the Eurozone, the corralito scenes in Catalonia will resemble those we have seen before in Cyprus and Greece.
(I have no affiliation or connection)