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Comment by mrb | Hacker News Reader

It is a very narrow-minded view to think that "customers paying merchants" is the only use case of Bitcoin... There is a lot more growth and potential in other areas: remittances, store of value, B2B payments, informal person-to-person transactions, paying foreign remote employees, collecting donations internationally, etc. It is all these areas that people are not seeing and thinking about when evaluating Bitcoin. Paying the proverbial cup of coffee in Bitcoin is probably the least interesting use case for Bitcoin.

And why would you think that Bitcoin's use is not looking good? The transaction rate, the best indicator of actual use, is sharply increasing: https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions?timespan=all&d... (this indicator is not typically impacted by mere speculators: buying coins and leaving them on an exchange does not create a transaction)

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> remmitances, paying remote employees, collecting donations

Blockchain seems like overkill here. Hardest parts are converting cash into bits and back on both ends, transmitting bits from one account to another is easy with, say, a MySQL db

> store of value

volatility makes bitcoin an interesting speculative investment. But without any backing or federal insurance, seems like a poor store of value compared to a bank account (though many currencies no longer have backing...)

> b2b, peer to peer payments

Again, solutions to these (ie. Venmo, Square Cash, Facebook Cash for p2p) do not require blockchain. How does blockchain tech help in these use cases?

> Hardest parts are converting cash

There is a powerful network effect taking place: the more people accept Bitcoin, the smaller the need to convert to cash, causing Bitcoin's convenience to increase bit by bit, causing more people to use it, etc. That is what we have been seeing over the last 7 years. And Bitcoin ATMs are becoming the most convenient way to convert to cash. They are popping up around the world at an impressive rate: https://coinatmradar.com/charts/#growth

> poor store of value compared to a bank account

On the contrary, savings accounts are a terrible store of value as they lose value over time: a 1% interest rate is eaten by a 3% inflation rate.

> powerful network effect taking place is this actually happening, or is this wishful thinking?

> bitcoin ATMs cool concept, unclear when there will be enough of these outside of USA to make a dent in the remittance market

> savings accounts are terrible agreed, losing 2% annually sucks. however, BTC literally dropped 14.88% today 0_0 unclear if it will continue to grow or drop, only volatility seems inevitable

>Again, solutions to these (ie. Venmo, Square Cash, Facebook Cash for p2p) do not require blockchain. How does blockchain tech help in these use cases?

Bitcoin is the only decentralized one. I don't think it means everyone needs to use it, but I think the role it fills is a very important one.

I feel like this criticism is like criticizing torrents or personal NAS media devices when fileplanet.com and dropbox already exist, or criticizing email when Facebook Messenger exists.

> role it fills is a very important one what role does it fill?

> criticizing torrents p2p file sharing fills a real need: quickly download large files for free, even when no single entity wants to pony up enough free bandwidth to make this happen

> criticizing email when fb messenger exists email is useful too. it is more formal and already part of the protocol of business communication. fb messenger is great for casual chats with friends, with a heavier focus on GIFs, games, etc. they fulfill different, but real, needs

None of those will ever fly if the currency isn't used to buy actually desirable end-consumer goods in some market. Why would those foreign remote employees accept Bitcoin if they can't spend it? Ditto for all the other transactions you cited.

Transaction rate is all down to speculation.

Payment systems already work fine with minimal cost. Store of value: yes you cannot overissue but the speculation tide could go out removing the store of value. Gold was/is volatile.

«Transaction rate is all down to speculation.»

Did you read what I wrote? "this indicator is not typically impacted by mere speculators: buying coins and leaving them on an exchange does not create a transaction"

«Payment systems already work fine»

It took me 7 days to move $300k from one bank account to another, because of closures on weekends & ACH limits. This is not "working well". With Bitcoin I can move $100k+ in ~10 minutes.

I have had many instances of credit card payments being declined while travelling internationally due to false positives from anti-fraud systems. This is not "working well".

In 2013 I couldn't even pay my rent using my bank's electronic payment system, even though my landlord and I had the same bank, because of arbitrary policy limit of $2k/mo for personal payments. This is not "working well".

I have had paypal steal ~2% through forex fees for a transfer to my family overseas. This is not "working well".

I have had fraudulent merchants stealing my CC info and created a bunch of hassle that took me time to sort out. This is not "working well".

And so on. Bitcoin may not be perfect, but it solves all these scenarios incredibly well.

And when your computer gets popped and you lose everything is that working well?

Cash is even more vulnerable to theft than cryptos. Yet I don't see you criticizing cash.

Regardless, the problem of cryptocurrency theft has been largely solved by hardware wallets and multisig wallets: there hasn't been a single documented case of bitcoins stolen from such a device. Also phone wallets, as long as running on a stock iPhone or Nexus/Pixel with recent security updates, are decently secure. And you can back up the seed of hw & phone wallets, so there is no risk of losing the coins if the device gets destroyed/misplaced.

>It took me 7 days to move $300k from one bank account to another, because of closures on weekends & ACH limits. This is not "working well". With Bitcoin I can move $100k+ in ~10 minutes.

You can move the bitcoin equivalent of $100k+ in 10 minutes. It'll take you longer than a week to convert to cash (not to mention the cost you'll be paying in fees). Plus you still have to deal with all the regulatory checks (unless you think you can get away with laundering money)

«It'll take you longer»

Incorrect. I trade at Gemini where I can sell BTC and wire the USD in less than 24 hours to a bank account.

> I have had many instances of credit card payments being declined while travelling internationally due to false positives from anti-fraud systems. This is not "working well".

I'd argue the opposite: this is working well.

Imagine travelling overseas, you go to pay for a coffee only to discover you've had all your cryptocurrency stolen. Who you gonna call?

You can't possibly be arguing that these false positives (which are causing major hassles: losing hours to find a way to get cash in a foreign country to pay with it) are "working well".

Cryptocurrency theft has been solved: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15229869

You read right, that is what I'm arguing. Okay, so not the false positives themselves, but that there are systems in place to detect / prevent / insure against loss.

Cryptocurrency theft has been solved by hardware wallets?

What happens when you lose your hardware wallet? Now you have to restore from backups, if you have them, but they're in cold storage 4000 miles away.

«systems in place to detect / prevent / insure against loss»

Yes the systems are nice. In theory. But when they cause more problems than they solve, that's not "working well". Bitcoin's systems to prevent loss are hardware wallets, and multisig addresses (eg. requiring 2-of-3 wallets/persons/automated systems to approve a transaction).

«Now you have to restore from backups»

The backup is simply a list of 12 words. Write it somewhere safe. Split the list. Memorize it. Hide it. Store it via steganography in an image in your email account. Whatever. It's easy to hide and have it accessible 24/7.

> But when they cause more problems than they solve

I'm willing to bet traditional payment card anti-fraud and consumer protection systems are solving more problems than they cause.

So you have been inconvenienced by them on occasion. That says nothing for the frequency these systems work as intended.

> The backup is simply a list of 12 words.

I wasn't aware of that, thanks for clarifying.

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