All that said, the process must start sometime. It's not like there's an alternative.
All that said, the process must start sometime. It's not like there's an alternative.
"In 18th-century America, colonial society and Native American society sat side by side. The former was buddingly commercial; the latter was communal and tribal. As time went by, the settlers from Europe noticed something: No Indians were defecting to join colonial society, but many whites were defecting to live in the Native American one.
This struck them as strange. Colonial society was richer and more advanced. And yet people were voting with their feet the other way.
The colonials occasionally tried to welcome Native American children into their midst, but they couldn’t persuade them to stay. "
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/09/opinion/the-great-affluen...
"The colonials occasionally tried to welcome Native American children into their midst, but they couldn’t persuade them to stay." is a nice euphemism for "The colonials kidnapped Native American children, but they couldn’t persuade them to stay."
FTFA
The colonials occasionally tried to welcome Native American children into their midst, but they couldn’t persuade them to stay. Benjamin Franklin observed the phenomenon in 1753, writing, “When an Indian child has been brought up among us, taught our language and habituated to our customs, yet if he goes to see his relations and make one Indian ramble with them, there is no persuading him ever to return.”
During the wars with the Indians, many European settlers were taken prisoner and held within Indian tribes. After a while, they had plenty of chances to escape and return, and yet they did not. In fact, when they were “rescued,” they fled and hid from their rescuers.
The funny thing is, I've never met a single person who has read much anthropological or historical literature who holds this view. Truly. Not one. It's only ever held by people who know nothing of so-called 'tribal living' (as if pre-modern 'tribes' in different parts of the world have much in common!).
Human cultures can be so vastly different as to be truly incommensurable. Have a read of Bill Gammage's 'The Biggest Estate on Earth', about the Australian indigenous nations. They managed the entirely of Australia a single 'estate', providing ample, easily-obtained subsistence from a massive variety of sources, using a variety of agricultural and hunter-gathering techniques. For 60,000 years. The depth of culture and development of rich social interaction this engendered is literally unimaginable to us. A contemporary American or Australian, with our love of comfort and trivial gadgets, philosophical naivety, absence of acquaintance with the nonhuman world, and lack of concern for conspecifics may well seem like an unfathomably ignorant and petulant child to an Australian of 1000 years ago.
There's far too much to say about this in an HN comment, but the notion that modern living is objectively and unambiguously 'better' than that is plainly false. Particularly when you consider that our culture is very likely to destroy most natural systems in the next 100 years. The fashionable lingo is that our societies are 'unsustainable', but the plain accurate truth is that, so far, we have proven to be unviable. Maybe we'll fix this, maybe not. But indigenous Australians have a 60,000 year proven track record.
Note I'm not claiming the converse of your claim is true, but just that you're being grossly simplistic.
> If you didn't believe that, go back to tribal living.
That's an unworthy and silly rhetorical jibe, as you surely must know. We are moderns and must make our lives where we are. That doesn't prevent us from taking a fair and knowledge-based look at premodern cultures.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-23758087
This passage in particular really touched me:
But life in New Jersey was not working out for Yarima. It wasn't the weather, food or modern technology but the absence of close human relations. The Yanomami day begins and ends in the shapono, open to relatives, friends, neighbours and enemies. But Yarima's day in the US began and ended in a closed box, cut off from society.
The "Tribal living" we're speaking of has a 0% chance of:
Curing disease
Defeating aging
Preventing mass-extinction from a supervolcano or asteroid impact
Leaving the planet before the sun envelops it
Of course, we might not do all of that either. We might get killed by nukes, or climate change. Some of it might not be possible even without those issues.
If you want the human race to continue on, a post-tribal lifestyle is the only way it is remotely possible. It isn't assured - but we know the chance of it happening with tribal living is 0.
But I'll still argue with 100% conviction that modern life is an improvement over what came before. You know where 1/10 women died in childbirth. Where a cut or a scrape or broken bone was often fatal. Where disease was often lethal and its cause unknown. Where war was just part of the way of life. Where only 1/10 men passed on their genes. Where superstition and practices that we consider barbaric abound. That doesn't mean we have it all right, or that there weren't nice things we gave up along the way. But never at any point was there any real option to stop advancing and keep the status quo. Cultures who did that, if any, are not around in an independent form today. Nature is still survival of the fittest.
And you could go back to tribal living if you wanted. There are plenty of people in the world living in primitive, tribal conditions and poverty with minimal interaction with the outside world. I expect some subset of those tribes would allow you to join them if you so chose. I'd seriously question your sanity if you did though.
http://theconversation.com/how-aboriginal-burning-changed-au...
And our paleo ancestors helped hunt woolly mammoths into extinction.
Turns out people are people and the "noble savage" thing is mostly myth. Not much hidden wisdom, not really any secret medicinal knowledge, just less effective ways of understand the world and doing things. This isn't to suggest pre modern cultures aren't worth studying, but it is to say they aren't worth romanticizing.
Furthermore, the fact that biochar is a buzzword in green agriculture today shows how little we've learned, seeing as indigenous populations used the "hidden wisdom" of 'terra preta' for thousands of years to enrich the soil. The quality of our crops today is built on thousands of years of selective breeding and clever farming by peoples in pre-Columbian America.
Sure, pre-modern cultures may have had "less effective" understandings of medicine or technology, but at the same time, these cultures survived for millennia. We're definitely more effective at screwing up our planet than they ever were.
Given the pending ecological disaster(s) we're facing, it's probably more responsible to try and learn from the examples set by ancient cultures rather than flippantly declaring that they were "less effective", and dismissing any contrary information as romanticizing.
And even if we'd left them completely alone, they almost certainly would have kept progressing, albeit significantly slower.
Here's a summation: "How not to do things unless you want 45% infant mortality and a short brutal life full of pain and hunger".
That isn't remotely what that article (or the paper it summarises) suggests -- it has nothing whatsoever to do with desertification. The magnitude of ecological effects of indigenous settlement of Australia is as yet very poorly understood and highly contested, and the timeline even more so. It's possible, but by no means demonstrated, for example, that early human settlement wiped out megafauna, but that it quickly settled into a sustainable pattern as the incomers learned to manage the continent.
To label any detailed description of indigenous cultures as 'romanticizing' or relating to 18th century 'noble savage' myths, for no better reason than that it contradicts unevidenced & derogatory popular myths, is just lazy.
A portrait deriving from the actual evidence carefully unearthed so far suggests nothing remotely resembling a 'noble savage' account of indigenous Australian civilisation, nor one that was 'less effective' than ours. Indigenous Australians were not purely hunter-gatherers, running naked around a 'pristine' environment, but were active managers of an entire continent's biomass. The aforementioned Gammage and Bruce Pascoe's Dark Emu are the best popular accounts, both drawing on and carefully referencing primary sources. Reading either might dispel a few prejudices.
Yes it is and yes it does. (But to find this out you have to read all the way to the end.)
The idea is that monsoon patterns were changed and the dry season extended which heated the land and resulted in more aridity. It's not a fringe theory at all and there is a fair degree of evidence for it.
Point being, primitives didn't necessarily live in Harmony with nature at all. Any more than we do. They just (to address your later point) were less "effective".
I've read both it and the study it refers to. It has nothing to do with desertification (and it's not empirical -- it's simply modelling a possibility).
> It's not a fringe theory at all
I said 'contested', not 'fringe'. Big, big difference. The appropriate response when something is contested is to reserve judgement. As I do. And as Gammage, Pascoe et al do (it has little relation to their theses).
> Point being, primitives didn't necessarily live in Harmony with nature at all.
Only hippies ever suggested they did. The mainstream emerging picture of Australian indigenous civilisation has nothing whatsoever to do with 'living in H[sic]armony with nature'. That you choose that phrase, and jump so reactively at straw men, displays only your tribal affiliation to a general thesis, without any knowledge of the specifics.
"We showed that the climate responded significantly to reduced vegetation cover in the pre-monsoon season. We found decreases in rainfall, higher surface and ground temperatures and enhanced atmospheric stability"
In other words, burning vegetation led to a more arid climate. That is the entire thesis of the article. It's really pretty clear.
Not to beat a dead horse still further but one of us is really missing something here. It could be me and if it is I'd like to know what.
"Contested" isn't cause to reserve judgment at all. The age of the earth is contested. Man made climate change is contested. But the age of the earth is very likely what geologists claim it is. And it's also very likely aboriginal burning is one of the causes of aridity in Australia. In which case they weren't "managing" so much as ignorantly abusing. Very much as we do today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_proliferation
It seems unlikely that humans will be able to colonize other planets any time soon which would help preserve the human race after an extinction level event -- it will take some impending catastrophe to make that happen, and it's not clear that even then world governments could work together to make it happen.
If Europeans hadn't settled North America, is there reason to think the American Indians would be extinct today?
Human activity in space is increasing very rapidly, after recovering from the slowdowns at the end of the space race and the Cold War [1].
What makes you think this trend won't continue? Especially given the ongoing technological advancements and cost savings we are seeing from companies like SpaceX?
Having self sustaining tribes far away from population centers is a very effective way to mitigate the death of our entire species in an all out nuclear war.
So an entire continent was just a big happy picnic for 60,000 years, with no famine or war? Uh huh.
There are and have been no perfect human societies, and I'm making no such claims. My point is that unthinking statement, always based only on popular myth, that premodern cultures were uniformly inferior to modern, are unsubstantiated. The picture is much more complicated, particularly if you are willing to countenance values other than those our particular culture has chosen to maximise. Even the most cursory reading of anthropology and history reveals this very easily.
For one, "they managed the entirety of Australia" implies uniformity and political unity which did not exist. Australia is huge. Some unlucky groups in the interior had to dig ten feet deep to get water, and travel between wells frequently while waiting for them to refill. And keep their locations a closely-guarded secret, because their lives depended on it. I wouldn't call that "easily-obtained subsistence."
In general, the notion that hunter gatherers have an easier time procuring food than completely sedentary farmers is very much up for debate.
Your assertion that Americans are "philosophically naive" compared to indigenous australians is also... unscientific, to say the least.
We should absolutely reject colonialist value judgements like those found in the grandparent, however, let's not substitute them for an equally simplistic noble savage narrative.
I've absolutely no love for the concept of "nobel savages" or "primitives living in harmony with nature" but it's possible they're just as happy, even given disease, murder, etc.
On one hand, that would be letting nature take its course, since humans are a part of nature. On the other hand, we could do something.
We have no uncontacted natives in the USA AFAIK, we have Natives that had their population decimated (through disease and outright war) and lost their land, then we parked the survivors on isolated reservations in a world that's nothing at all like they once thrived in.
There is an alternative, it's just not economically viable or socially popular, but it would be to quarantine much of the Amazon and prevent modern humans from moving in.
The entire Amazon rainforest is 2 million square miles or around 1.2B acres. So you could buy the whole thing for around $12B. Or about half the price of building a wall between the USA and Mexico [2] that many people see as unneeded and unwanted.
[1] https://www.rainforesttrust.org/10-for-1/
[2] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-immigration-wal...
The Rainforest Trust that you mentioned sounds like they're donating the land to national parks, which seems like a great solution because there will be forest rangers and so on, yet my Brazilian friends were concerned about how effectively they can deter poaching, especially in remote areas.
I don't have a clear sense of this but I wonder if it might provide a greater marginal benefit at present to pay for more protection of existing "protected" areas, compared to purchasing additional land.
And choose not to. They understand perfectly well what our culture has to offer, and want no part in it. Get it?
And this is being discussed in good faith? Am I in real life right now?
Cultural genocide is the systematic destruction of traditions, values, language, and other elements which make a one group of people distinct from other groups.
In this case, with uncontacted peoples, I can't imagine having them persist for hundreds of years (or more) without us trying to communicate some medical knowledge, at the very least. However, there is likely no easy way to do so.