Hacker News Reader

Comment by tastyface | Hacker News Reader

For me personally, "being lazy" is awful because I'm stuck in a constant battle between my personality (which wants to mould to the shape of my couch and watch TV forever) and my mind (which desperately wants to leave a mark on the world). Every day I spend couch potatoing feels like a complete and utter failure of the soul, and it seems like most of my effort is actually spent on trying to bend my personality into the shape I want it to be. If you try and fail, at least you're still left with that invaluable experience! Most accomplished people have a repertoire of failures behind them; most don't seem to have years of dicking around.

View on HN

I've felt like this my entire life. Turns out for me that it is a symptom of (undiagnosed) ADHD - an execution problem, not a motivational problem. Having gotten that diagnosed, it's a very significant change in my life. To be cliche, the first day of the rest of my life.

For many people, "trying to bend their personality into the shape [they] want it to be" is fruitless, totally counterproductive.

The first thing I had to learn was that in order to change my behavior, I had to change my environment, not my attitudes. My attitudes are fine, indeed, perhaps excessively eager.

It's possible that other people could take something away from that, ADHD or not, it's better to accept and appreciate who you are and the value you bring to the world, and instead seek to make changes to where you are, what is around you, and how you relate through that to the rest of the world.

I think you've got a good point there. A lot of people feel like they want to change, like they need to be a certain person, do certain things, but what they don't realize is that they don't understand themselves well enough. I had a revelation with coming to terms with being introverted and (probably) a touch of autism (undiagnosed, doesn't really matter tbf - what matters more is understanding the symptoms and personality traits). Once you understand those, and realize that's you, you'll start accepting yourself more, and while you won't be a hipster rockstar just yet, you'll be at peace with it more.

Ha. I once heard ADHD described by a behavioral scientist as "making a list of chores and putting it up on the fridge so you'll see it every day, and every day you see it but forget the moment you're out of the kitchen" (not verbatim)

Having severe ADHD, coupled with a seemingly unalterable indifferent outlook on life due to manic depressive disorder and childhood trauma has given me a morbid sense of satisfaction in making time to squander my time here on Earth... And intense salf hatred. I just hope I can consolidate these two aspects of my personality in a reasonable timeframe. One half of my role models are all polyglots, men of science and patrons of the arts, and the other half are all dead from speedballing or suicide.

Wait a second. Future me?

Ok, so there's time travel in the future. But why did you come back? Did our goals all fail? Was global warming that bad? What are you trying to alter in the timeline?

Use the code-phrase I'm logging in my private folder on Keybase and get in touch.

(But seriously, damn our lives sound similar. Any advice for dealing with the problem?)

I came back in time to prevent us from ever going back in time. Sounds complicated, and trust me it is. All will become clear soon.

I wish I had some smidgen of life advice, but we're even more fucked up in the future than we are now, I'm afraid.

Jokes aside, what I've been doing is finding fun ways to strengthen my discipline while picking up useful skills. I picked up the Rubik's cube about a year ago, I'm now under a minute and a half and won't stop until I'm under ten seconds. Then I will learn how to balance things on my fingers and other body parts. Then I will learn how to juggle.

No, I'm not training to become a circus clown. Just noticing my weaknesses (visualization, dexterity, coordination, etc) and finding fun ways to mitigate them. The discipline involved in my incremental daily progress will hopefully carry over to other aspects of my life.

I keep a pack of index cards and a pen within arms reach, and make tons of lists and notes and keep them around my monitor so I see them ten hours a day. I try to take care of at least 1-3 things on these lists a day. I condense my daily soul-crushing feelings of loneliness and desperation to between 3-4am.

I have a million and one great ideas and I write them all down, but I only allow myself to focus on 1-2 projects at a time. This creates a small sense of embarrassment, as I love to work through my ideas by discussing them with others even if I don't actually plan on implementing them any time soon, but I worry it comes across to others as me talking about doing all sorts of things that I will never do, simply because I don't bother communicating that I'm just talking through these ideas to find their flaws. But that's ok, eventually I will have things to show for it.

I'm not satisfied with the speed of my progress, but that's ok. If I was, it means I'm not aiming for lofty enough goals. I should never be satisfied with the person I am, because I should never settle for what I have.

Anyway, that's what works for me for now, hope some of it helps.

What you changed in your environment?

(I ask because I had same experience, except now that I am diagnosed I am struggling to find what I am supposed to do... I am kinda spinning in place without going anywhere)

TL;DR - I found this book effective, you should read it instead of listening to me blather below:

https://www.amazon.com/Taking-Charge-Adult-Russell-Barkley-e...

---

The biggest things, broadly, are:

Step 0: Get engaged medically - with diagnosis, collaboration, and medication. ADHD is not something you can manage on your own. It's literally "the disorder of not being able to fix the problems you can clearly see", so you need external feedback and assistance. Doctor(s), therapist, friends, family, co-workers, employer - gotta engage all of them.

Step 1: Figure out where the problems are. This means, before you make any changes, record when things go right / wrong and map out places that need change. (and I know, making ADHD people carefully analyze and wait it out is the most ridiculous thing ever but...)

Step 2: Change your environment and the way you live your life. Automate, externalize, or delegate all nonessential tasks and change your set/setting to accommodate you instead of struggling to behave. If it's not something you do without thought or effort, automate, externalize, or delegate it.

Step 3: Relax! You've made it, time to kick back and... Oh, no, sorry, continue to repeat steps 0-2 on a weekly/monthly/annual basis, largely for the rest of your life. It's a little bit like weight loss - getting there is only about 10% of the battle. Getting consistent about it is the other 90% and that's the part that clearly people with ADHD struggle with the most.

Anyway, it's really key to understand it as a process, a skill, and one that you can improve at over time. Don't let missing things or being unsuccessful get you down, just pick it back up and learn from where you made the problem. Don't blame yourself any more than you'd blame yourself for being colorblind or tall.

More about the changes in step 2:

a) I automate and delegate everything even more heavily than I did before. All bills go on autopayment, anything that can be set up to be routine is. Yard service, cleaning service, whatever it is, if it can take things off my plate, sold. Can't overstate how critical it is to not let your own execution problems trap you. Focus on strengths and accept your weaknesses.

b) Calendaring is absolutely essential. He recommends paper, I do it digitally, whatever works for you. I have things set to remind me, and I use it religiously. I have reminders for any recurring activity - daily, weekly, monthly, if it can't be automated, don't try to remember it, instead use reminders. It also must be with you 100% of the time. Literally chain it to your arm if you need to. Which sounds less ludicrous when you call it a 'smartwatch' but...

c) Externalize everything. Draw pictures, flowcharts, checklists, plans, or sketches; set timers, write notes, make boxes and organizers; put gold stars on a chart; whatever it takes, but you can't rely on your own brain to provide feedback. You need things to be concrete and outside of your own mind.

Most importantly, the things you need have to be at where you perform the task, not in the office. I have 3 whiteboards in my house and they are constantly full with relevant, localized info, plans, lists, schedules, etc. I use painter's tape and markers to label everything. Do not label the cats. They do not like it. I routinely go through ~3 rolls of tape a month.

d) You need your environment to fit you, not the other way around. If you can't focus at work, either make changes to where / how you work or find a new job. If your home/neighborhood/city is the wrong size, shape, or activity level, change it. It's that simple, and that serious. A significant undertaking and one that I'm definitely still working on.

> Do not label the cats. They do not like it.

I feel this is the "take out all the brown M&Ms" moment in your reply. I did laugh a lot though - the timing was unexpected.

I mean, I'm not going to lie and say that I didn't learn that empirically. But I am totally glad you caught it and had a chuckle.

I'd just like to point out, as a person who was not diagnosed with any particular kind of disorder (and boy, did my family try to make that happen when I wouldn't change my interests to meet their expectations,) that all of this advice is good advice for anyone. Everyone.

It may be more critical for someone with ADHD, but, even so, it's an outline of habits common to effective people. And frankly much of it is a great expression of what it means to be human (change your environment, delegate your efforts, planning and scheming, etc.)

Absolutely true, certainly executive functions are energetically "expensive", and very tiring to exercise continuously, regardless of neurological quirks. People also often have a lot more trouble with executive functioning than they think - as an example, checklists vastly improve the performance of even virtuoso experts at complex tasks.

I see...

So my project wasn't just me being complete nuts.

My parents put my computers near them after I moved back with them.

I kept insisting I needed one where I wanted... After sevearal months arguing and not getting anything done, I managed to get help to build a desk (I didn't have money to buy one...) bought computer chassis (computer was without one) on a junkyard, and setup it where I wanted.

This was recent, so I didn't started to get things done with it yet, but at same time the whole undertaking was feeling like I was just wasting time for no reason, like if I was procastinating, that maybe I should just try to get things done anyway in my parents office and deal with the noise and interruptions...

Nope! I'm with you, noise and interruptions are totally fatal. Things other people think are fine drive me crazy, or worse, are exciting and interesting and ooh shiny look at the time, it's 9pm already. If I didn't work on the internet, I would turn off the internet while I was trying to focus :)

I fantasize about having a job that doesn't involve me sitting on a computer nearly 100% of the time for the same reason.

edit: formatting

I get that too sometimes. Watching woodworking videos on youtube is very satisfying. Not something I'd do myself quickly (I'm comfortable with the money I'm making at the moment), but I can imagine it's a very soothing line of work. The videos are often very quiet and focused too, much like software development in the zone - and unlike software developers, artisans are generally left alone with their craft and how they want to work is respected more.

Me too. I have a very "maker" spirit and I really love the woodworking and the metalworking videos on youtube. In addition I love car restoration and build videos too. Unfortunately for me I don't have the resources to do any of the above at the side although I am thinking of working on my car and doing the small little things instead of the mechanic.

Here's another book recommendation for handling adult ADHD.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01C3CKQYM/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=...

I got lucky and made some money in spite of my undiagnosed case. But my ignorance allowed me to make some bad life choices when it came to choosing the wrong spouse, and now we're divorced with 2 kids.

This is amazing, thank you. I feel this way every day - I have a lot of motivation and every day not actively working to learn or make something feels like a waste. It feels like I just spent the day in some kind of lazy heavy fog with nothing to show for it. To be honest I highly doubt I have ADHD, but I think this advice might help me regardless and I'll consider seeing a therapist to help with this.

You've got a very strong point.

The role of environment is severely underrated. Not just in our failures, but in our successes as well.

Motivation runs dry, but environment can be set up to work in your favour.

For example, if you sold your couch and TV, you wouldn't watch TV first thing after getting home or on weekends.

This isn't to say that you'll magically become more productive, but to just illustrate how changing the environment can have a profound effect on your habits and therefore, your life.

After realising I had succumb to the quick-fire, quick-fix attitude of phones and social media, I used my now shortened attention span against itself by putting barriers between me and those quick fixes.

If I want to check my phone I have to go get it and wait for it to turn on. If I want to check distracting sites on my computer, I'll have to log in first. They're small, but normally what happens is I will start to slip out of focus, by habit I will punch in the distracting site, realise I need to log in and go "Oh yeah, not now" and then get back to work. It's like a focus cue for when my brain goes on auto-pilot. I find I check far less often now because my brain knows there's no reward there.

I'm going to the doctor. Most days I wake up with so much to do and my mind just crashes and burns. When I am in the zone (couple times a month) I get more done in that zone time than the entire month.

If you ever need advice, commiseration, or just to vent, hit me up, email in my profile here. That goes for anyone reading this, as well.

Many years ago I was like you, and then I discovered this nifty life hack:

Whenever I am in slouch mode, quick come up with the quickest home chore I haven't done. Vacuuming? Washing dishes? Cleaning dining table?

The quicker the chore could be done, the better. And as you about to finish it, come up with the 2nd one. After the 3rd time, your mind is awake and ready to do productive things, like a side project, etc.

It's like bicycle for your mind, the first couple strokes are always difficult.

I'm very similar to you and grappled with the same issues.

What really changed for me was reading some Hindu philosophy. I'm Indian and Hindu by birth but have been agnostic pretty much all my life.

I looked into the philosophical component of Hinduism out of curiosity.

The heart of Hindu philosophy is in the Gita. The core idea of Gita is to "do your duty regardless of the results"

This is a belief I've now come to embrace wholeheartedly.

I've stopped bothering with the results. I've stopped bothering with what others are doing.

I only focus on what I CAN do - my duty - and forget about the rest.

Relinquishing control has been a great thing

Feeling behind is worthless, I agree with the article, though do it more than I'd like.

The way I "quit" TV, and sugar, for that matter was to get them out of my day-to-day habit. For me that meant getting them out of the house. Sell the TV and dump cable if it is standing between you and your goals. Personally did that after a long period of travel after finding I did not miss it once.

With sugar, I stopped buying anything at the grocery with significant carbs. If I need a treat I turn to premium dark chocolate.

I still might partake a bit of either while out on the weekend but that is it. Now trying to push alcohol and caffeine to the same category but finding them more difficult.

What's so great about TV? If you want to do something then do it. Otherwise you didn't want to do it in the first place.

People contain multitudes. "You" aren't a single entity which wants or doesn't want things. There is such thing as internal conflict.

The two of you are saying the same thing with different definitions.

Personally disagree

Wanting to do something vs doing something else are two different things. I want to be rich but I'd rather watch TV.

I think accepting that you enjoy watching TV or other passive means of entertainment is more important than beating yourself up over not doing something more productive.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com