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Comment by alsetmusic | Hacker News Reader

It's 8pm here in the Bay Area and my home is reading 91.8 degrees with the sun down and all my windows open. I remember when I moved here in 2002 and my first landlord told me, "You're in the Bay, you don't need an air conditioner."

That's still true, though. We only have heat like this around September with a little overlap before and after. It's pretty unpleasant for that six or so weeks, however. It's noticeably worse than 15 yrs ago, too.

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> You're in the Bay, you don't need an air conditioner.

Wow he must have been an iron man. Maybe in SF you don't, but you go a bit south and you so much do. I've spent lots of money setting up AC in my current house and now I am feeling it's worth it. I'm relatively ok with heat but 100+ is too much even for me.

I've lived for 10+ years without an air conditioner. I usually just go to common air-conditioned spaces (coffee houses, school campuses) or near the sea where it's cooler.

I hate being at home during the day anyway, but it's also to try to save a little energy ;) Everyone turning ther A/C on is actually making the planet hotter.

> Everyone turning ther A/C on is actually making the planet hotter.

This really needs to be emphasised to all the newcomers to SF.

In Fremont/San Jose/Sunnyvale you probably will need AC, but most areas you're probably fine with a few fans running, which are more environmentally friendly.

But alas, the culture here is changing. The sales people in our office have this lazy habit of opening the windows and keeping the AC running.

But do you need any heating in SF’s winters?

If so, AC unit might be the most economical option.

Well said, as soon as the mercury rises my family cranks up the A/C, only to exacerbate the issue as all their power comes from Fossil fuels

Even if the energy to run an air conditioner came from a source like hydroelectric power and the machine operated at 100% efficiency, it would still heat the outside air.

A typical air conditioner is one example of a heat pump, a device that moves heat from one location to another. In this case you're pumping heat from inside your house to outside, warming the air around the house.

Your refrigerator is also a heat pump, moving heat from inside the fridge to the outside. This is one reason cats like to climb up on top of the refrigerator (besides the fact that they like to climb on everything) - it's warm up there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump

It's less about heating the outside air directly and more about carbon emissions from massive cities all using air conditioners at once.

Not saying give up air conditioning altogether, but consider hanging out in an air conditioned public space instead of switching on your own. Libraries, malls, coffee shops, universities, just to name a few.

From the basic energy conservation considerations, it is clear how much heat is produced by the AC - the same amount that it consumes from the power grid. There is no other place that energy can go to, and there's no additional energy that can be converted to heat. So if your AC consumed 1kWh, that's 1kWh of heat that was dissipated. It doesn't matter what's inside the AC, conservation of energy works the same way. BTW the same would be true for any device that consumes 1kWh, unless it creates mass (very uncommon for household devices).

It would heat the outside air only temporarily. Eventually the heat would seep back into your house and it would be back like it started.

Of course 100% efficiency isn't actually possible.

> Everyone turning ther A/C on is actually making the planet hotter.

That's bull. I won't have absolutely any effect on the planet if I run my AC 24/7 for all my life. The scales are way too different. You are free to do what you want but please spare me the sanctimonious baloney.

BTW, how do you get to the sea - I bet it's in a car and not on the back of a unicorn? At least most people do. Same as they get to air-conditioned malls (whose AC would probably be consuming energy couple of orders of magnitude more than that home AC) and other places. As I said, it's your choice how to deal with it but please, less posturing.

Ac works by pumping heat out of the house and pulling Air in that passes by coils with compressed solvent. When solvent changes from liquid to gas when released into the coils under less pressure, the molecules absorb heat energy from the incoming air (gasses inheritely have more energy because the molecules are moving around faster). The gasses used are greenhouse gasses which contribute to making the world hotter. You say it's on a small scale, and I agree with you, but so is an individual cow, but cattle contribute a large percentage of the greenhouse gasses. The collective use of air conditioning does indeed contribute to climate change. While it does push out hot air, I don't think this would have a noticeable immediate effect on the local temperature.

Oh and btw I love AC and am totally wtfing about not having AC now that it's hot and all the fans being sold out wrf.

Thank you, I know how AC works. The point is the difference is minuscule, on home scale. Unless all home AC users start to vent their refrigerant tanks into the atmosphere (which would defeat the whole purpose of having AC), and keep doing it for decades, the effect of it would be nil. In practice, the leaks are small and are promptly fixed because when refrigerant is leaking, AC is useless and nobody wants that. Of course, it would be nice to use even better chemicals (such as HFOs), but even now the contribution of home AC - if properly used and disposed - is small.

> The collective use of air conditioning does indeed contribute to climate change.

Not significantly more than any other use of the same energy.

Humans survived without A/C for most of their existence. While it is common today it really is a luxury.

70,000 people didn't survive without A/C in the 2003 heatwave in Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_European_heat_wave

Without A/C, tropical countries would not have developed to the extent they have, bringing millions out of poverty https://www.vox.com/2015/3/23/8278085/singapore-lee-kuan-yew...

Most people in most tropical countries still don't have a c.

I live in the tropics and don't have it, but we are in the country. Family in the city do and every house I have been to in the city does (middle classes and up (where middle class is basically anyone who has a regular job)

Most tropical countries aren't highly developed!

We also had cultures based around weather - you wouldn't see people out and about in that kind of heat, because everyone would be in the shade trying to keep cool. Now we have a bunch of concrete buildings and roads and glass skyscrapers.

Same goes for antibiotics and internet access. Everything is a luxury when you compare it to living in a cave and scrabbling to survive.

The difference between A/C and antibiotics is that there are plenty of alternatives to A/C like drinking enough water and staying in the shade. There really aren't any alternatives to antibiotics. The Internet is totally frivolous to human survival on a basic needs level.

Quite a few people still die without A/C. Children and the elderly are particularly susceptible to heat stroke.

I grew up in Sacramento. I know full well that hydration and shade are not nearly as effective as just staying inside an air-conditioned room. They're certainly important in those cases where you need to be out and about, but it's almost always better to just not be in that environment in the first place.

Sacramento without A/C would be a harsh place for even a healthy person during the summer.

Roads started melting there from the 110+ degree heat this summer.

> Humans survived without A/C for most of their existence.

How many died because of the absence?

Survival is a poor metric.

And is it less or more than the number of people who die from coal pollution.

If anything I think less die before reaching puberty.

> without A/C

... and clothes, shoes, agriculture, metal, etc etc. A/C is a luxury, yes, but humans have been without pretty much all artificial things for most of their existence.

Humans survived without dental care, anesthetics, antibiotics, regular bathing, deodorants, vaccination, pasteurization, etc. for most of their existence. At least some humans. Now, people are free to get as close to the stone age as they like, but I like my civilization, thank you very much. When my teeth hurt, I don't bash them with a stone and don't drink boar's urine, I go to the dentist, where she fixes my problems under anesthesia. When it's too hot, I turn on AC. Yes, it is a luxury, as most of our civilization is. And I love it.

Humans also didn't live in a lot of environments that were enabled by A/C.

Not true. Think of to the Bedouins in the Sahara, the Inuits in northern Canada and the tradesmen crossing the Silk Road since the first Egyptian empire. Or anyone in India for the last 7k years. Humans have been living with temperatures ranging from -50C to 50C for thousands of years.

The American southwest (i.e. Arizona) was thinly populated until the advent of air conditioning.

They had swamp cooling. Also the rivers actually had water in them above ground. But yes, less people.

Even in pre-colonial times? Or whas it just that Europeans settled in places that felt like home?

Like where? Early human civilizations started in some of the hottest places on earth.

Climate in the "Fertile Crescent" during the Neolithic was cooler and wetter than it is today.

And even today it is not really among the hottest places on Earth.

Houston

> Humans survived without A/C for most of their existence

And they still do. It's ubiquitous in the US, but I assume only a tiny minority of people in the world use A/C, even in developed countries.

I really hate being meta, but why are people responding to a comment with no meat or substance?

Look - we are all the children of survivors, and the correct counter factual are all our siblings and their lineages who didn't make it.

I wonder if we'll start saying the same about refrigeration, electricity or reliably clean water?

Many places human live today weren't considered habitable until A/C was invented.

Wow he must have been an iron man.

I'm sure his house has A/C, but that doesn't mean his apartments need it, or could even use it.

It's like $40 per AC unit for second hand equipment. Not very expensive.

Well, that sounds like a simple window mounted unit, when they probably meant a whole central air (ducts through the whole house) kind of system.

Yeah, but a window mounted unit is good enough. Keeps your whole place cool. It sounds like everybody has their windows open anyway, and this way you can store them or sell them when you don't need it anymore.

A lot of landlords & HOAs disallow window units. They also can compromise your home security

So dystopian. "No you can't put a magic cooling box in your window even though it will solve all your problems, because I say so."

Well, it depends on how it's installed, the power, the model etc. Built-in central air models, especially combined with heating, can run pretty pricey. If it's a big house and it's a new model, with all regulation-required energy-saving features, it's a five-figure territory. Of course, if you need to cool only one room, you can get small second-hand one for much cheaper.

>I remember when I moved here in 2002 and my first landlord told me, "You're in the Bay, you don't need an air conditioner."

Hell, I bought a home in Richmond in 2013 and when we were getting the furnace replaced I asked about adding an AC as well and the guy laughed at me. At 11pm its 88 in my hallway. 74 in my bedroom where I bought a window AC unit. Really wish he would have just given me the price and let me decide...

Are you so nonconfrontational you were unable to ask for what you wanted? If a contractor wont do the work, find another. Don't just accept what some random guy tells you. Conversely, don't blame your contractor for your inability to decide for yourself.

"I'm going to make a lot of weird assumptions about a stranger on the internet and snarkily give them advice in a super awkward way. This will be helpful somehow."

You still can add it, it's pretty much a separate add-on to the furnace.

mountain view and surrounding area is pretty hot during the summer, and you need air conditioning. it cools down after 9pm or so, though.

Palo Alto is never hot enough for an AC though. At least in my experience. It does get hot, but not totally unbearable.

Today at lunch with a friend in Palo Alto, we measured 106°F at our table in the shade. We ate outdoors because the cafe had no A/C and was intolerable.

Even on a normal warm day, so many Palo Alto restaurants are uncomfortably hot inside because of no A/C and poor ventilation. Especially the places that face south or west!

Yup. Many restaurant owners: penny-wise, pound-foolish

It was 106 ℉ today in Palo Alto. Maybe you wait until it's 121?

When I was a kid living in Palo Alto I remember a day when it was 107 degrees. I think it was 1971.

You definitely don't need AC in Mountain View.

Source: Haven't turned it on.

You're making an invalid, hasty generalization from ancedotal evidence. A ground-floor apartment or shaded house is not the same thing as a flat-roofed, unshaded, uninsulated, top floor apartment.

Well yes, if you build your house to need AC then you will need AC. Probably also lots of heat in the winter. So do the smart thing.

Majority of people here are renters :)

I've lived in California for almost 40 years. The house I grew up in south San Jose had a small, in-wall air conditioner because it was needed about 5 weeks out of the year. It's true most houses on the peninsula didn't have air conditioners originally, but many of them do now (probably more affordability than climate change).

Mmm idk I've been here for 30+ years and we always seem to have one or two weeks of intense heat and its not clear to me that its that much worse. I certainly remember the summer of 2002 when we had some 100+ days in August (I remember this because I was playing golf at Stanford and getting utterly toasted)

If it's unpleasantly hot for longer than a month, every year, that sounds like an air conditioner is extremely appropriate. The cost is what, half a month's rent to have many year's worth of comfortable Septembers?

> half a month's rent

in SF, that's one hell of an air conditioner

What's a half month rent 2k? Seems reasonable for a split system. Inc installation.

2.5k or more

It's generally only a few days where it's in the 80's or above at night, even the 70's is rare at night.

If you open the windows at night, cool the place down, close the windows and shades in the morning, the house will stay pretty cool throughout the day.

This is hot though :)

Ha ha landlords are cheap bastards

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