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Comment by _m8fo | Hacker News Reader

Electric scooters and mopeds are the future.

I have a Glion Electric Scooter -- I can go 15MPH for 15 miles. It costs $800, is super safe and easier to use than a skateboard (I used to have a Yuneec Ego Skateboard). The best thing about is it that I can take it indoors and just put it under my desk at work. It pays for itself easily in NYC.

They need to make scooters. Better yet, a $2000 electric moped with proper turn signals and brake/front lights. The minute someone makes an electric scooter that can hold two, go 30mph for 100 miles a charge with a removable battery I will buy it. The RadRover is pretty close, but no dice (it's too slow and doesn't have proper brake/front lights with turn signals).

I've been thinking about getting a 50cc gas scooter (think Vespa or Genuine Scooter) since it technically meets all of the requirements I mentioned there, but I hate needing gas. Oh well.

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I've recently bought xiomi scooter [1] from aliexpress for around $500 (incl shipping) after an extensive research on what's available on the market. For some reason they don't sell them in US and the cheapest comparable scooter in US is sold for $900+, but it's still head and shoulders above the competition, it has ABS on the front break! Also disk breaks on rear wheel! On a scooter. It also has a smartphone app which really well designed that shows you range, speed and other useful info. And it's built like a tank and not heavy at all. I am now using it for 90% of my commute. It can go up to 30 km in range and at a decent speed. I am so tired of searching for a parking spot for my car everywhere I go, so this scooter is a perfect solution for me.

[1] - https://nis-store.com/electric-scooters/xiaomi-mijia-electri...

Cynically, Xiaomi products often aren't sold in the US until they are re-branded and sold through an indiegogo campaign (a simple search for Populele is a good example)

I still have a hard time seeing them completely take over in places where 3-6 months of the year it is miserably cold outside. Sure, I know that "there's no bad weather, just bad clothes" but I still don't quite see that catching on as easily.

That said, if 90% of inner city driving was people on scooters or super small, lightweight, enclosed vehicles I would totally commute to work on an electric scooter, and probably make it work even in the winter. That said, when there's ice on the road and it's snowing, I'm not going to want to ride a scooter when there's a Suburban behind me trying to brake...

I hope you're right, though.

Something I've never understood is why skateboards and mopeds and vespas?

Why aren't we all moving around on something small but stable like an electric fourwheeler/quad/atv or whatver you want to call it?

I've never received a good answer why the more stable, easier to ride, less likely to topple quad hasn't been adapted to city use or even made street legal, when mopeds and vespas are everywhere.

You can still park many of them in the space of a car and many more people would be capable of driving them. To me the electric quad seems like no brainer city vehicle.

Small four wheelers are super sketchy at scooter speeds. The short wheelbase makes for quick and flighty steering and the narrow track makes them tippy. You have to lean to maintain balance, but leaning is not initiated and controlled via steering like it is on a two-wheeler, so it feels less natural.

You also have a big increase in cost and complexity. Twice as many wheels which means more bearings, more suspension components, etc. You need a differential and drive shafts and CV joints, which are expensive. A solid axle would be cheaper, but a solid axle on the street makes for some tricky riding dynamics. It is heavier, so the parts need to be stronger. The motor is harder to get at, which makes maintenance harder.

And no matter what, a scooter will always be smaller and so will always have better places to park.

Scooters are easier to fold and carry around too.

I imagine because of the european market on scooters. In The Netherlands for example electric skateboards are illegal out of the box and require a licence plate (because its a fully motorized vehicle) scooters and vespas are already ingrained in culture and have a market.

There are boosted boards and electric bikes, and scooters/mopeds are bridge products between the two. I really question the need for that.

For many people a scooter will be important if they can't skateboard/have no interest in trying. I think the majority of people who are willing to commute on something like that will prefer a board though. I imagine it's more stable at low speeds, it's got better ground clearance, it's faster to pick/fold up/carry, but probably most importantly it does look a whole lot less dorky.

There's some reason to prefer a scooter to an electric bike, but I think the infrastructure around bikes makes the convenience kind of a non-issue. I would also prefer a bike to a scooter for long distance or higher speed, or if I had to go in a bike lane or the street. A moped on the other hand takes way more room to park (no bike racks) and is too heavy to be picked up. I think there are very few reasons to prefer that to a powerful e-bike with a good suspension, disk brakes and strong frame.

Also, my own nomination: electric rollerblades. Still not much of a defining use case, but personally I'd prefer minimizing the form factor as much as possible. Make the wheels lock so you can do stairs without taking them off, make them convenient to remove, and make them small enough to fit in a drawer.

Well I think of it like:

Walking - E-Skateboard - E-Scooter - E-Bike - E-Moped/Gas Scooter - E-Car

Let's ignore skateboards for a minute, which are significantly more difficult to learn than any of the others. With this you have scooter vs. bike vs. car. A moped's main advantage is speed. A bike has exercise and familiarity. A car has cargo capability and can take more than one passenger.

In general, the main tradeoff is weight and size. Anyway, I digress. I think the main reason to prefer a moped to an electric bike is because of turn signals and proper front and back lights. Once that's resolved I'd agree, there's less of a point of a moped/scooter. Unfortunately adding good lights and turn signals is nontrivial while preserving the lightness of a traditional bike. Safety is the most important thing and turn signals are key.

There's a company called Jetson that has an interesting take on it, though.

Mopeds are step-through primarily to allow room for the engine under the footrest or above the rear wheel. For the same reason they have small tires and relatively high rake angles. In a lot of ways that's a straight downgrade: it makes the handling much less stable (which is why rake must be high), it makes the frame weaker (so it is constructed heavily to compensate) and it makes ride quality worse.

Electric motors and batteries have very flexible envelopes so you can fit a very powerful powertrain in a bike with no problem- the battery just has to be very skinny. The big wheels and responsive handling mean slow speeds are very controllable compared to a moped, and the handling and bike weight is much lighter.

What I think is really needed is an e-bike that is meant to be an actual road vehicle, IMO specifically that has a lot in common with a motorycle. Something with a much larger battery, streamlined wheels, a headlight and turn signals, and a comfortable seat. That would be just lovely. I still strongly feel that having a scooter form factor is not necessary to have those things, though. For instance the Haibike Xduro Trekking Pro[1] managed 32 mph and claims 30 miles range, but that's with pedaling (the bike provides 275% boost power). It also has front and rear lights, but no turn signals. Pretty good 51 lbs,and the frame looks like it's extra low to facilitate picking it up. Still, I wasn't able to find anything that provides the weight/power/range of an e-bike with the features of a motorcycle.

[1]: Warning, spammy subscribe popups: http://electricbikeblog.com/haibike-xduro-trekking-pro-2015-...

Maybe an e-dirt bike. Based on your preference of the ride of a bike over scooter, a dirt bike may be what you are looking for. The ones I have seen are built for actual tracks and off-road, but they might make some street legal versions or certainly you could install the light features and other equipment required to comply with your specific state law as many do with traditional gas powered dirt bikes.

Edit: I probably should have mentioned cost as the e-dirt bikes are not really in the same range as any scooter or e-bike I've come across.

> Mopeds are step-through primarily to allow room for the engine under the footrest or above the rear wheel.

Surely you meant the other way around?

Engines are generally too wide to fit between your knees, since an engine is usually a vaguely cubic shape. In early mopeds the engine was below your feet[1], so there was no point in having a crossmember where your knees would be.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ZweiRadMuseumNSU_Hildebra...

Aren't they simply step through because that's more comfortable for casual rides?

With motorcycles, and many mopeds for that matter, they seem to be able to put the engine between the legs.

I just got my Immotor Go electric scooter off their indiegogo campaign. It is pretty awesome since it folds up pretty small, so taking it to a store allows me to just stow the thing under the shopping cart. 16mph max speed, 16 mile range. It has a pretty nice headlight and some taillights that increase in brightness when braking. Also has swappable batteries which would increase its usability if you had a charger at work/home.

It is far from perfect though, it is inexplicably heavy (nearing 30 lbs.) The "casing" of the handlebars is made of plastic, so it creaks a lot in use. The ride itself is fine, but with small wheels and a tiny suspension you feel every bump. Riding over a brick sidewalk feels like you have your feet in a massager.

What I want is a folding electric scooter, with the option of pulling up a seat. Larger tires, weatherproof, and the ability to be locked up to a bike rack properly.

I'm also looking into electric bikes, I'm probably going to try and convert an old hybrid bike of mine to try it out.

> The minute someone makes an electric scooter that can hold two, go 30mph for 100 miles a charge with a removable battery I will buy it

there's a vast gulf between 1-pers/15mph/15mi and 2-pers/30mph/100mi. increasing just one of those variables by a factor of 2 would require a 2x heavier battery, let alone what you're asking for.

You're right. I will point out that the 15MPH limit is generally a legal restriction as opposed to a technical one. The Juiced Bikes Cross Current S costs $1200 and can go 28mph with pedal assist. It's not inconceivable to have a new form factor that can fit another person and double (or triple the price).

$2000 is probably aspirational. What I'm asking will likely cost like $4000. The problem with that price is that you can get a very nice 50cc gas scooter for $4000 that will likely be better in most ways.

The Cross Current S costs $1700 and has a much stronger electric motor than the previous Cross Current. You're probably referring to the Cross Current Air which comfortably cruises at 24-25 MPH without heavy pedaling.

(source: waiting for my Cross Current S order to be delivered)

Ah you're right. Yeah, I was referring to the Cross Current Air.

Let alone, speaking as someone who has crashed going ~25mph on a bike, A LOT of safety considerations to take into account.

Not sure how that's better than a bike. 15 miles round trip is a perfectly reasonable bike commute (mine is about 12 miles). It seems like all the benefits and drawbacks of one apply to the other, except that you're only getting a bit of exercise on one.

It is reasonable, but why would you want to arrive to work sweaty if it's not necessary? It's easy to forget that the average person doesn't have access to a shower at work. Also, a kick scooter is significantly safer and more maneuverable than a bike in my experience riding a road bike. An inch clearance off the ground makes it pretty safe.

I have the same scooter as the parent comment and I have to say I feel significantly safer on my bike. I like the scooter and it's fun and useful for quick errands where I don't want to get sweaty. However, the breaks are not nearly as instantaneous (I'm sure there are scooters with better breaks though) and I can't maneuver it nearly as quickly as I can my bike in the event of an emergency (or even just general travel).

My experience may be a bit biased though, considering I'm both a pretty experienced cyclist and I have to deal with the crazy San Francisco hills.

EDIT: Also, I do a fairly regular 12 mile round trip bike commute. Have only done it a couple times on the scooter for fun and it was terrifying compared to my bike.

It's not just you, a bicycle will always have much more responsive handling. Mopeds have small wheels so they need a long rake and wide tires compared to a bike, to make the steering stable and the contact patch larger.

Higher rake means the bike pitches in response to the wheel turning, because the contact patch is less in line with the handlebars. Wide tires multiply that even more. That gives stability at high speed but when you try to turn the whole vehicle moves the wrong way, making steering lag. It also makes it harder to stay up.

Ah, in your case a scooter would definitely be more dangerous. I doubt any scooter could stop on a dime down the kind of hills you're encountering. Even cars have trouble stopping quickly.

I'd actually say all forms of transportation are significantly more dangerous in the bay area, haha.

If you ride slow enough, or don't wear too warm clothes, you won't sweat. Here in Copenhagen 40% or so commute on bikes, including all classes of society from homeless and gypsies to lawyers and managers. 99% of them do it in their work clothes.

Kick bikes are incredibly unstable compared to bikes at their typical low operating speeds, and positively unusable at anything approaching biking speed.

Unfortunately, if you live somewhere where it gets legitimately hot outside or your commute involves a substantial hill, sweating is non-optional. I work in San Francisco so the weather is good for biking, but my apartment is at the top of a big hill. I do bike to work, but on the way home I often work up a sweat and have to change. However, I did recently order an e-bike which I'm very excited about to avoid that issue!

Copenhagen has the fairly unique advantage of never really getting warm or humid and being basically completely flat.

Copenhagen never getting really warm?!? Last time I was there, it was like 25°!

Exactly, and we get at least 10 of those days every single year.

I can't tell if I am missing the sarcasm in this thread, but 25°C would be considered a cool day in the summer where I live. Today is cool and overcast, and the high is still 28°. Last week it was even hotter.

And that is not even considering humidity. There are some days you can just open your front door and you are immediately sweating.

I never get sweaty when I ride, unless I'd get sweaty walking in the same conditions. It's not a race for me. No need for showers, stretchy clothes, etc.

Not sure about the safety. The fall to the ground isn't what gets you as a vulnerable road user: it's the car.

Not everyone wants to exercise during their commute (for varying reasons, including that some of use are more prone to sweating) – in fact, seeing as cycling has always been an option for many, it would really seem that perhaps only a minority want to exercise during their commute.

I certainly don't, although I also readily admit that any option that leaves me exposed to the elements would be a major step down for vast portions of the year. But for many days an e-moped might be a reasonable option.

While I tend to agree with you, it could be much nicer if it's very hilly. 15 miles on a flat course is pretty nice, 15 miles on a hilly course is pretty taxing.

I don't think bicycles are allowed on sidewalks.

A scooter is more space efficient, both in your apartment and at the office.

Neither are scooters, if bikes aren't.

I'll grant you the second point, for sure. You could always do a folding bike, but that's a whole new set of issues.

> Electric scooters and mopeds are the future.

No.

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