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Comment by krona | Hacker News Reader

Over the years I learned, through trial and error, that cheap French wine hardly ever compares favorably with wine from New Zealand and Australia at the same price point. More recently it's become true of Spanish wine, too.

I don't know whether it's because the French export their worst wine (or perhaps I just have no taste), but since the French themselves are drinking less of it, I can't help but think that complacency has crept in somewhere.

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Me and the wife went on hols to the Bordeux region a few years ago. Whilst there I conducted a highly scientific experiment. When we didn't eat out we bought a few bottles of say EUR1.5-3.0 red plonk from the nearest supermarket. I can exclusively reveal my results of this anecdote along with a few others (anecdotes):

* I can sink at least two bottles of Bordeaux region cheap supermarket wine with virtually zero after effects the next day * I cannot sink at least two bottles of any wine from say Tesco without suffering the next day (I'm GB based)

There are quite a few caveats here but in general I'm actually going to allow for the rumour that them there froggies actually know what they are doing: they make bloody good wine - instinctively. Whatever we get here is broken in some way.

I will continue my investigation and attempt to come to a conclusion - hic

What can be called wine and what not differs between countries. The cheapest wine is often a mix of material from a grape plant half fermented to be mixed with water, alcohol and sulfite to create and bottle the "wine" in the country of destination. I imagine that kind of thrash is not allowed to be sold inside France.

In theory the UK is still part of Europe as is France, so we should get the same kind of wine as consumers.

No we bloody don't.

The stuff I've drunk in France and Italy seems better to me (anecdote) than we get here.

I'm not an expert but I know a hangover when I experience one and I don't get one when I drink certain wines (within reason)

Why do you think you should get the same kind of wine locally as consumers in the UK? There are so many factors here that could affect the quality and selection.

> In theory the UK is still part of Europe as is France, so we should get the same kind of wine as consumers.

No, France is still allowed to be even more picky than EU regulations require. Same goes for what can be called "baguette" in- and outside France: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baguette

That would be higher dosage of SO2. It stabilize the wine and export producers of cheap-ish wines want to be extra sure the bottles dont go bad on shelves or by incorrect storage. Bottles for local consuption dont require this extra "protection".

French wine I've purchased in the US has never been anything but disappointing. Italy, Spain, and S. America are far better values.

However, I once spent a week in Paris buying mostly the cheapest not-obvouisly-bad wine I could find, down to 3€ a bottle, and all of it was really, really good, which, given my experience with French imports to the US, surprised me. I suspect that 1) markup on French wine shipped to the US is much higher than other imported wines, and 2) a lot of what is shipped at this markup isn't the best stuff at its French price point to begin with.

Or it's probably that your definition of good wine has been shaped by new world style expectations of what wine should/can be.

Old world and especially French wines are generally more neutral and restrained wines, made to be consumed with food.

Also a very high percentage of low and mid-tier wines made in the 'international' style are more like a composed semi-synthetic product made to conform to a rather homogenous consumer preference, and altered with flavourings/additives[1], esthers, enzymes, etc. than the classic definition of an 'authentic' wine (even if that itself is kind of bullshit).

See:

* 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mega_Purple

So I collect wine and have a lot of winemaker friends and not one would even think of using this. The Wikipedia article lacks any proof for its numbers. There is one link to a story that is an interview with 2 people who would be named to say they use it.

A good 3rd of my wine collection is French.

I also make (have a 1/2 acre vineyard of my own) and collect wine and know wine makers. Yes none of them would use it. But they're not working for Gallo etc.

I am pretty sure the practice is mostly non-existent in Europe. At least in appellation wines.

But when people complain that low-cost wines are better in the new world, my experience is that they are invariably referring to the fact that they can get a consistent fruit forward 'shiraz' for $13 but when they taste a cheap French wine it's nothing like that.

Do you have some beginner-friendly links on what is and not allowed in French winemaking. I've always thought I'm paying only for the "Frenchness" and not anything specific about the winemaking process itself.

E.g., kinda like the German beer-making standard vs. "anything goes" Belgian-style ales.

Sorry for being off-topic but regarding the Reinheitsgebot this is really interesting:

https://www.europeanbeerguide.net/reinheit.htm

I'd also be interested to know what is and isn't allowed in wine.

Sorry, I did not consider Gallo to be wine :)

Fair point however.

I have found in the last couple of years some makers have started to move to more of a French style. In the world of whites, the cougar juice is giving way to a better old world style wine.

I agree there are some suspect fruit bombs out there that people think wine should taste like. I hope that is changing.

I'm not saying I prefer this wine to that, merely that French wine is not price competitive on the whole for 2/3 of the French wine available to me.

The French wine you find outside of France are not the same wines you find inside of France.

For some reason, the wine also get something like 5 times price increase when leaving the country.

I did a home exchange with a family in Pays Beaujolais several years ago. We tried the local Vin Cooperative and for 4 (eur) got some very ordinary wine - I was expecting much better.

Then our exchange family told us to go direct to a local vineyard where they bottled their own (1 km away from coperative). The same 4 euros per bottle was gorgeous - and they had a lovely white which was still relatively new for them! We bought a case which was all we could fit into our suitcases for return flight...

We asked how they sold, and they sent half their produce to the Cooperative for cash flow (where it was mixed in to improve the other rubbish presumably), and then bottled the rest themselves and sold direct. Over the years they had built a steady clientele. They did say that with taxes and transport other costs, the price went up 4x or more for end user.

French living in Japan here. I think the same happens in the US: they use "French" like a trademark to sell random shit. If you are going to buy a 5-10$ bottle, all that the "French" label will bring is an increase in price but not quality.

Chilean and Australian wines are what I drink here when I go for a cheap bottle. Still, I feel like they add some kind of preservative in wines here, even good ones. There is an aftertaste I dont get with wines (even cheap ones) in France.

But yes, complacency is also a factor. Wines are getting better everywhere and foreign wine compete favorably in the cheap range.

Now I am just hoping that one day they will compete in cheese and that I can buy some at the local supermarket without having a 5x multiplier because of the "french" label.

Out of curiosity, what do you think of the Camemberts and blue cheeses from Hokkaido?

I have never tried their blue cheese. I found some blue cheese sold at Aeon that are decent.

As for the camembert, I have no idea why they call it that way. Unless I did get particularly bad ones at my supermarket, this is really different. Very little taste, closer to a brie actually.

Then come here to Australia!

We are a very good country for cheese, with a lot of variety. But nobody outside the country goes shopping for the fancy Australian cheeses and so I don't think you will see many of them in even the specialty shops.

As someone who worked within the Food Industry for 10 years in SEA Region.

Yes, because Anything from France sells. And we are finally seeing some consumers realizing the quality they are getting. I still think we are still 10+ years away from ending this French premium pricing mark up.

More Importantly, the French knows of this as well. And from my experience the pricing of French (export) product fluctuate alot. For the same product I could get it 2-3x cheaper from Japan trade, ( France to Japan then Ship to other region ) then buying it directly from France. ( With less volume, but the difference shouldn't be that big )

Then there is the trader. Lots of French Product company dont do export themselves. They have deals with some Trading company, acting as their Export branch. Reasons because they dont have to deal with many export regulations, no need to hire someone to speak English or other languages. But these trading companies tend to make a mess sometimes when they are selling to lots of places with different pricing.

When in Australasia, I tend to agree with you on the quality compared to price however I do find that if you go to a decent boutique wine shop and have a chat, they'll have good european bottles around the $15-30 mark that, in my opinion, are extremely good for value (i.e. something I might pay €6/7 in France from a wine sellers). Avoid NZ/AU supermarket prices and selection at all cost!

That's odd advice- the selection and prices at Dan Murphy's (liquor retailer owned by supermarket chain Woolworths) are far superior to any boutique I've seen, plus they have regular tastings so you can decide for yourself.

I've found price and quality poorly correlated with Aussie wines: the big brands are cheap and unexciting but very dependable, while small producers tend to be expensive and wildly inconsistent.

>the big brands are cheap and unexciting

I admit I'm an awful wine snob: I can't drink cheap, mass-produced wine and I love inconsistency - I'm happy to be disappointed on occasion when more often that not, with the guidance of an experienced wine shop owner, I'm going to get something exciting from a small producer.

While Dan Murphy's range might on the surface seem comparable to say, Sydney's Oak Barrel: if you know you want a non-typical French red (say, not a Bordeaux blend or Bourgogne pinot noir), the latter has a truly wider selection away from the generic, sellable reds. Plus, the staff are crazy knowledgeable and I often walk in saying "I want something great for $20" and they'll honestly get me the best available in that price range.

https://www.danmurphys.com.au/red-wine/Category-red-wine/cou...

http://www.oakbarrel.com.au/shop/wine?price=50&country=franc...

Are you aware most French / European wines are blends, while NZ/AU and South American are not?

Most good wine in the world are blends. This is not scotch we are talking about

I was wondering what blending means with respect to wine.

Does blending with wine means >1 grape variety is used, then just pressed and fermented?

It's complicated, but in the simplest terms it means that more than one grape variety is used. Blends can be co-fermented or fermented separately and blended after the fact (the most common).

Cheers, that's very interesting! I guess fermenting separately makes a lot of sense, then you get to control the taste by blending the two in different amounts.

Unless you buy a single cask, all whisky is a blend of at least the casks in a distillery (in this case, single malt).

https://www.diffordsguide.com/encyclopedia/1119/bws/how-is-s...

It's put down to tradition vs technology.

Hand picking and using corks still is quaint and has value, but if you're looking just at taste, technology wins.

It is also worth to try East European wines from Hungary and Croatia.

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