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Comment by richthegeek | Hacker News Reader

Wow, I really am amazed how few consumer protections you seem to have!

In the UK we're protected on two levels: firstly the "Distance Selling Regulation" means we have the right to cancel many contracts/purchases made not-in-person within 14 days of delivery.

And secondly, if a good is faulty, not as described, or unfit for purpose then we have a right to a refund under those terms also.

Probably because of these already strong rights, Amazon UK (and most retailers) go beyond that and simply offer a 30 day "no questions asked" return policy in most cases.

I didn't realise until now how much I took it for granted!

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the "Distance Selling Regulation" means we have the right to cancel many contracts/purchases made not-in-person within 14 days of delivery.

First of all, the Consumer Contracts Directive replaced that in 2014, no?

Second, how exactly would this have protected the buyer? Maybe no restocking fee and only difference between free and basic shipping? In EU, does seller HAVE to pay for return shipping?

Third, you know that "protection" isn't free, right? You're paying for that in terms of higher prices and lost economic opportunities.

Finally, the pro-EU, anti-US condescension laced with pity is so tiresome and ignorant. We get it, things work differently there. Some are better, some worse. It's hardly paradise.

(For the record, I've lived in the US and the EU.)

Not to mention, not all of the EU is the same. Want to return something in Germany? Forget about it.

Buying from an independent seller on Amazon is similar to buying on eBay. You're taking the risk of not having the customer service that large corporations can afford.

Plus, Amazon customer support will often help out with claims where the seller is in the wrong (e.g. item does not match description).

I don't know in what Germany you are living. But with the former "Fernabsatzgesetz" (now integrated into our BGB) we have the right to return everything we order online within a period of two weeks.

Never had a problem returning anything ordered online. Ok one should nonetheless read the terms before ordering.

Not to mention, not all of the EU is the same.

No, that would be rather dull. But in terms of returning stuff you bought on the Internet, it pretty much is: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_Rights_Directive_20...

"The current varying lengths of the withdrawal periods both between the Member States and for distance and off-premises contracts cause legal uncertainty and compliance costs. The same withdrawal period should apply to all distance and off-premises contracts. In the case of service contracts, the withdrawal period should expire after 14 days from the conclusion of the contract. In the case of sales contracts, the withdrawal period should expire after 14 days from the day on which the consumer or a third party other than the carrier and indicated by the consumer, acquires physical possession of the goods."

I have returned things bought from Germany before without problems and I am not even in the same country...

Be that as it may, I had a similar experience with an independent seller at Amazon UK. I bought a pan that arrived with a small defect and they told me I would have to pay the postage back (25 Euros on a £30 or £40 pan - I was buying from abroad). I also ended up keeping the pan and now avoid independent sellers as much as possible.

Interesting - I certainly would have raised that to support!

Why not do a chargeback on your creditcard (or raise a PayPal claim)? The law is very clear, if an item is faulty or not as described the seller is on the hook for all costs. This includes return shipping and/or sending you a replacement.

A lot of sellers will try to strong-arm you but if you just do the chargeback/claim they have no option but to eat the loss. Creditcard companies and PayPal thankfully nearly always back buyers, tilting the power balance back to the consumers' side :)

In Europe, for some sad reason credit cards are very rarely used and many stores don't accept them. Not to mention, if you do a charge back against a store like Walmart or Amazon, you won't be able to shop there anymore because they will ban you.

In day-to-day shopping creditcards are very rarely used, but I'm pretty confident that for internet purchases creditcards aren't that rare. And as far as being banned goes: of course you first raise the issue with Amazon. Amazon says its an independent seller, go deal with them. You try to work it out with the seller, he doesn't budge, you show him the law. Still doesn't budge, you raise it with Amazon again. If Amazon doesn't budge, tell them that you are lawfully entitled and will do a chargeback, and that they can deal with the independent seller acting illegally (and if they're smart they just chargeback the seller). If they would still ban you then, that will be one hell of a juicy court case.

Have you ever gotten banned somewhere for a chargeback? I haven't that I know of. But, then, I never reach that point with anyone I've ever wanted to do any more business with, so maybe I got banned without noticing.

> Why not do a chargeback

Do you really think "I bought something sight unseen and now I don't like it, waah" gets you special snowflake protection? There is no hint that the item is faulty or not as described.

If that's the law then yes?

Show me such a law.

Here you go:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/pdfs/ukpga_20150...

"I bought something sight unseen and now I don't like it, waah" will indeed entitle you to a full refund within 14 days under most circumstances.

All EU member states have laws implementing http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:319... (non-conforming products have to be fixed/replaced free of charge) and http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:320... (consumers can withdraw from most distance contracts for 14 days (although here they have to ship back on your their costs))

The parent comment states "I bought a pan that arrived with a small defect". Under UK law, that would entitle him to a refund of product cost, delivery costs, and return costs (and Amazon's policies go further - even if not faulty, the seller must provide a UK returns address or pay the costs).

He didn't say anything about a defect. The pan arrived and he didn't like it. I don't think that's the same situation as a defect.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14911971 clearly mentions a defect. The parent post of that post matches your description though.

Oh, I was looking at the wrong parent.

I bought a device through an Amazon seller. It developed a fault after 10 months, within the warrenty period. The seller told me to return it, but then after I sent it they would not answer emails. After three months with no contact I started complaining. In the end Amazon told me they could do nothing and recommended I perform a chargeback!

I'd be a little thoughtful about filing a chargeback against Amazon - businesses do have considerable latitude in their choice of response beyond the immediate situation. For example, Steam's been known to permanently disable accounts in response to chargebacks, which means that even though you probably get your money back for the one game you had a problem with, you're still out everything else.

I would love to know if that's legal (in various jurisdictions). You may have hundreds of dollars worth of games, blocking the entire account in response to one incident seems disproportionate.

Always talk to Amazon customer support if the independent seller is making a fuss about warranty or return.

Did this myself. Didn't help. All it did was add to the frustration and anger.

I'm glad Amazon changed their policy.

Amazon policy for defective items is a full refund, and free return postage.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=...

That's not what repeated emails and calls to Amazon customer service said for a defective $350 Exergen thermometer. I kept trying to escalate the issue. Amazon Customer service kept apologizing, telling me that they could do nothing. This happened about a year ago.

Still shop at Amazon, but I definitely think more before buying bigger ticket items and I comparison shop now. Even though this policy change is great, I don't feel that I can revert back to my previous behavior of just mindlessly buying stuff at Amazon because of faith that they'll take care of you.

I am still especially wary of buying from 3rd parties on Amazon unless it's a throwaway item, and we refuse to buy anything that isn't Prime.

FWIW, the A-Z guarantee would have covered this:

> Your request meets one of our A-to-z Guarantee conditions below: [...] You want to return an item internationally and the Seller does not (1) provide a return address within the UK, (2) provide a pre-paid return label, or (3) offer a full refund without requesting the item be returned.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeI...

Those "protections" come right back at you in your CoL.

I'd rather purchase stuff without being able to return it than pay a price that includes my statistical risk of returning things.

Sometimes I think Europe's chief export is incredulity :)

> And secondly, if a good is faulty, not as described, or unfit for purpose then we have a right to a refund under those terms also.

None of this applies here, OP simply wasn't happy with their purchase. Does it really make sense for the seller to have to pay out of pocket for round-trip shipping on a heavy iron pan because OP didn't bother reading the listing or looking at the pictures?

Wow, only 30 days? That's very very low. REI and other stores here in the US offer up to a year no questions asked return policy.

I didn't realize how great that was compared to the UK!

> Wow, only 30 days? That's very very low. REI and other stores here in the US offer up to a year no questions asked return policy.

30 minimum required by law. Not maximum.

REI is unusual, and famously gets returns on things like clothing and tents that have been used for months.

> Wow, only 30 days? That's very very low. REI and other stores here in the US offer up to a year no questions asked return policy.

REI is unusually customer-friendly, because it's a consuner cooperative. Most US stores do not offer anything like a year no-questions-asked return policy (30 days, many-questions-asked is more typical.)

Similiar in Germany.

Of course, the Directive is a EU Directive.

Whether the UK will keep those protections is something we'll see.

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