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Wow, I really am amazed how few consumer protections you seem to have!

In the UK we're protected on two levels: firstly the "Distance Selling Regulation" means we have the right to cancel many contracts/purchases made not-in-person within 14 days of delivery.

And secondly, if a good is faulty, not as described, or unfit for purpose then we have a right to a refund under those terms also.

Probably because of these already strong rights, Amazon UK (and most retailers) go beyond that and simply offer a 30 day "no questions asked" return policy in most cases.

I didn't realise until now how much I took it for granted!

Similiar in Germany.

Of course, the Directive is a EU Directive.

Whether the UK will keep those protections is something we'll see.

Be that as it may, I had a similar experience with an independent seller at Amazon UK. I bought a pan that arrived with a small defect and they told me I would have to pay the postage back (25 Euros on a £30 or £40 pan - I was buying from abroad). I also ended up keeping the pan and now avoid independent sellers as much as possible.

Interesting - I certainly would have raised that to support!

Why not do a chargeback on your creditcard (or raise a PayPal claim)? The law is very clear, if an item is faulty or not as described the seller is on the hook for all costs. This includes return shipping and/or sending you a replacement.

A lot of sellers will try to strong-arm you but if you just do the chargeback/claim they have no option but to eat the loss. Creditcard companies and PayPal thankfully nearly always back buyers, tilting the power balance back to the consumers' side :)

In Europe, for some sad reason credit cards are very rarely used and many stores don't accept them. Not to mention, if you do a charge back against a store like Walmart or Amazon, you won't be able to shop there anymore because they will ban you.

In day-to-day shopping creditcards are very rarely used, but I'm pretty confident that for internet purchases creditcards aren't that rare. And as far as being banned goes: of course you first raise the issue with Amazon. Amazon says its an independent seller, go deal with them. You try to work it out with the seller, he doesn't budge, you show him the law. Still doesn't budge, you raise it with Amazon again. If Amazon doesn't budge, tell them that you are lawfully entitled and will do a chargeback, and that they can deal with the independent seller acting illegally (and if they're smart they just chargeback the seller). If they would still ban you then, that will be one hell of a juicy court case.

Have you ever gotten banned somewhere for a chargeback? I haven't that I know of. But, then, I never reach that point with anyone I've ever wanted to do any more business with, so maybe I got banned without noticing.

> Why not do a chargeback

Do you really think "I bought something sight unseen and now I don't like it, waah" gets you special snowflake protection? There is no hint that the item is faulty or not as described.

If that's the law then yes?

Show me such a law.

Here you go:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/pdfs/ukpga_20150...

"I bought something sight unseen and now I don't like it, waah" will indeed entitle you to a full refund within 14 days under most circumstances.

All EU member states have laws implementing http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:319... (non-conforming products have to be fixed/replaced free of charge) and http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:320... (consumers can withdraw from most distance contracts for 14 days (although here they have to ship back on your their costs))

The parent comment states "I bought a pan that arrived with a small defect". Under UK law, that would entitle him to a refund of product cost, delivery costs, and return costs (and Amazon's policies go further - even if not faulty, the seller must provide a UK returns address or pay the costs).

He didn't say anything about a defect. The pan arrived and he didn't like it. I don't think that's the same situation as a defect.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14911971 clearly mentions a defect. The parent post of that post matches your description though.

Oh, I was looking at the wrong parent.

I bought a device through an Amazon seller. It developed a fault after 10 months, within the warrenty period. The seller told me to return it, but then after I sent it they would not answer emails. After three months with no contact I started complaining. In the end Amazon told me they could do nothing and recommended I perform a chargeback!

I'd be a little thoughtful about filing a chargeback against Amazon - businesses do have considerable latitude in their choice of response beyond the immediate situation. For example, Steam's been known to permanently disable accounts in response to chargebacks, which means that even though you probably get your money back for the one game you had a problem with, you're still out everything else.

I would love to know if that's legal (in various jurisdictions). You may have hundreds of dollars worth of games, blocking the entire account in response to one incident seems disproportionate.

Always talk to Amazon customer support if the independent seller is making a fuss about warranty or return.

Did this myself. Didn't help. All it did was add to the frustration and anger.

I'm glad Amazon changed their policy.

Amazon policy for defective items is a full refund, and free return postage.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=...

That's not what repeated emails and calls to Amazon customer service said for a defective $350 Exergen thermometer. I kept trying to escalate the issue. Amazon Customer service kept apologizing, telling me that they could do nothing. This happened about a year ago.

Still shop at Amazon, but I definitely think more before buying bigger ticket items and I comparison shop now. Even though this policy change is great, I don't feel that I can revert back to my previous behavior of just mindlessly buying stuff at Amazon because of faith that they'll take care of you.

I am still especially wary of buying from 3rd parties on Amazon unless it's a throwaway item, and we refuse to buy anything that isn't Prime.

FWIW, the A-Z guarantee would have covered this:

> Your request meets one of our A-to-z Guarantee conditions below: [...] You want to return an item internationally and the Seller does not (1) provide a return address within the UK, (2) provide a pre-paid return label, or (3) offer a full refund without requesting the item be returned.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeI...

Wow, only 30 days? That's very very low. REI and other stores here in the US offer up to a year no questions asked return policy.

I didn't realize how great that was compared to the UK!

> Wow, only 30 days? That's very very low. REI and other stores here in the US offer up to a year no questions asked return policy.

30 minimum required by law. Not maximum.

REI is unusual, and famously gets returns on things like clothing and tents that have been used for months.

> Wow, only 30 days? That's very very low. REI and other stores here in the US offer up to a year no questions asked return policy.

REI is unusually customer-friendly, because it's a consuner cooperative. Most US stores do not offer anything like a year no-questions-asked return policy (30 days, many-questions-asked is more typical.)

Those "protections" come right back at you in your CoL.

I'd rather purchase stuff without being able to return it than pay a price that includes my statistical risk of returning things.

the "Distance Selling Regulation" means we have the right to cancel many contracts/purchases made not-in-person within 14 days of delivery.

First of all, the Consumer Contracts Directive replaced that in 2014, no?

Second, how exactly would this have protected the buyer? Maybe no restocking fee and only difference between free and basic shipping? In EU, does seller HAVE to pay for return shipping?

Third, you know that "protection" isn't free, right? You're paying for that in terms of higher prices and lost economic opportunities.

Finally, the pro-EU, anti-US condescension laced with pity is so tiresome and ignorant. We get it, things work differently there. Some are better, some worse. It's hardly paradise.

(For the record, I've lived in the US and the EU.)

Not to mention, not all of the EU is the same. Want to return something in Germany? Forget about it.

Buying from an independent seller on Amazon is similar to buying on eBay. You're taking the risk of not having the customer service that large corporations can afford.

Plus, Amazon customer support will often help out with claims where the seller is in the wrong (e.g. item does not match description).

I don't know in what Germany you are living. But with the former "Fernabsatzgesetz" (now integrated into our BGB) we have the right to return everything we order online within a period of two weeks.

Never had a problem returning anything ordered online. Ok one should nonetheless read the terms before ordering.

Not to mention, not all of the EU is the same.

No, that would be rather dull. But in terms of returning stuff you bought on the Internet, it pretty much is: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_Rights_Directive_20...

"The current varying lengths of the withdrawal periods both between the Member States and for distance and off-premises contracts cause legal uncertainty and compliance costs. The same withdrawal period should apply to all distance and off-premises contracts. In the case of service contracts, the withdrawal period should expire after 14 days from the conclusion of the contract. In the case of sales contracts, the withdrawal period should expire after 14 days from the day on which the consumer or a third party other than the carrier and indicated by the consumer, acquires physical possession of the goods."

I have returned things bought from Germany before without problems and I am not even in the same country...

Sometimes I think Europe's chief export is incredulity :)

> And secondly, if a good is faulty, not as described, or unfit for purpose then we have a right to a refund under those terms also.

None of this applies here, OP simply wasn't happy with their purchase. Does it really make sense for the seller to have to pay out of pocket for round-trip shipping on a heavy iron pan because OP didn't bother reading the listing or looking at the pictures?

I can offer you the perspective of a small business employee that sells a number of products on Amazon without Prime fulfillment.

In your view, how much should you have paid for shipping for an item that you didn't want? Nothing?

Should the seller be responsible for shipping the item both ways?

There is already very little margin in selling commodity goods, especially when you consider Amazon takes 15% of gross value as a fee. Shipping in many cases changes the order from profitable to money-losing. If you try and price it in, you can't compete on cost which begs the question of why bother selling on Amazon in the first place.

The crux of the issue is this, though: Amazon doesn't give a shit about 3rd party sellers, nor can the 3rd party sellers provide the same level of customer service as Amazon can, mostly due to economies of scale. The whole 3rd party seller program is a testbed for Amazon, a research program to see how they operate and how Amazon can do it better and as soon as they realize how - the 3rd party sellers either get priced out by a race to the bottom with Amazon itself (they go directly to suppliers and cut everyone out) or by policies like these, which are ripe for abuse or eat further into seller margins to the point of operating at break-even or slightly in the red.

As a last note: Whenever I buy on Amazon, I buy Prime. The incentives of customers and 3rd party sellers are incompatible. If I were a customer for the goods that we are selling, I would never buy from our company.

From the PoV of a company whose products get sold by 3rd party sellers on Amazon, it's a total disaster. They regularly sell used or returned items as 'new,' and most customers don't notice. They provide atrocious customer service. Amazon does nothing to police this. These sellers also do everything in their power to avoid processing a return. I don't want to crap on your business, but I hope these regulations push the less scrupulous 3rd party sellers back to eBay.

Thanks for the perspective. I totally get it - which is why I didn't go on a rampage over my $90 pan not being up to my standards. I can sympathize with the sellers here (though I think the policies sometimes favor themselves over their customers) - BUT - as you've noted yourself, Amazon's scale has allowed them to do a lot better than the little guys. If this had been a Prime item, it would have been free return shipping and full refund, no questions asked. As a customer, why wouldn't I go for that? It makes the experience I had with a small seller seem shocking by comparison.

Instead, I'll either avoid the independent sellers, or just to to Sur le Table. So how do these sellers win?

What value do 3rd party sellers actually provide to Amazon customers? Yes sometimes the price is lower, but that's usually because they bought the goods at a retail store auction for next to nothing (these auctions sell lots of returned merchandise sight unseen). Anyone running one of these businesses has to realize what they're doing is more than a little sketchy.

That's a very sweeping generalization that doesn't have much to do with reality.

The majority of 3rd party sellers by volume own their own websites outside of Amazon. The ones you described are tiny mom&pop stores that come and go by the thousand every year.

Sorry I don't buy that. The only reason a consumer would choose a 3rd party seller is price. If Seller can beat Amazon (presumably the most efficient retailer on Earth) on price then Seller must have obtained the goods at below wholesale price.

The Amazon 3rd party seller system is not designed for these small sellers to win. It's designed for Amazon to see which products are in demand and how much customers are willing to pay along with gathering feedback from customer expectations.

It's more of a platform to see what works and what doesn't, at the expense of small businesses who wanted to sell on Amazon. At least that's my perspective. A 3-5% margin may be fine when you run a 100B business, have economies of scale and a world-class brand, but the same will spell disaster for a small business.

There are also a lot of dishonest 3rd party sellers who come and go like a swarm of locusts. Maybe they "win" in the short run by selling counterfeit goods and not honoring Amazon policies, but in the end they will lose also when Amazon bans non-prime fulfillment of orders (that day is coming sooner rather than later, my guess is before 2020)

As you found from looking into the costs of return shipping, "free" shipping can actually cost a retailer quite a bit of their margin. They are attempting to remain price competitive by not pricing in the cost of returns. Amazon has a massive advantage here over small retailers because their shipping costs are much lower due to their scale.

These sorts of shipping policies used to be the norm, until Amazon realized that people value free shipping more than an equivalent discount.

People value free shipping because shipping is a scam in a lot of cases. I used to work for a company that made logistics software. One of our customers was one of those cable channels that hawks merchandise around the clock.

You would buy a ring (looks like a real diamond!), and when it arrived you realize "hey, this is just cheap costume jewelry" and send it back. They'd happily refund the price and express hopes you'd be happier with future items.

And they didn't care about the return, because they were charging you $8 (or whatever) for non-refundable shipping and only paying the shipper $1.20. So in the end they made $6.80 for selling you nothing.

I think much of the staying power of free shipping has to do with manufacturers' price fixing. If all retailers are forced to sell at the same exact price, then the most competitive thing to do is to pay shipping out of their overhead, similar to how a brick-and-mortar store's logistics costs are covered.

As a hardware startup who sells on Amazon, 3rd party sellers are a total nightmare. They hijack your Amazon product page, and often sell returned merchandise as 'new other' at a significant discount. Customers typically don't notice the distinction, and think they are just getting a sweet deal on a new product. I'm glad Amazon is imposing more restrictions on 3rd party sellers. Hopefully this will force some of the junk sellers to move to eBay.

I don't know how long ago this was, but if it was within the last 30 days (I think) you can probably file an A-to-Z Guarantee claim and get an immediate Amazon gift card credit added to your account.

I did this recently with an item I ordered. I paid extra for the non-prime eligible 2nd day shipping. It didn't arrive until after 6 days. I filed a claim, and without having to wait for the claim process, Amazon immediately gave me the option to close the claim and receive a gift card for the amount I paid without returning the item.

Buying clothing on Amazon is also hell. I suspect that some vendors deliberately mis-size their items. For the extreme majority of items around $20-30, I don't bother returning them.

If Amazon's purchasing experience was smoother, I'd be doing less paranoid research ahead of time, looking up the company, trying to figure out if the reviews are fake. If only Amazon could shape up how much buyer's disadvantage I'm experiencing on their store, I'd be buying more often and more confidently, especially from anything other than popularly reviewed items.

Amazon needs to shape up their game because, yes, ordering online is convenient, but you can shop online at Walmart AND get the offline return assurance. And most stores price match Amazon now.

I understand the disappointment and frustration here, but choosing to be out $90 for something that will never be used—vs. recouping some money and having the offending item gone—seems like a questionable decision.

Please read carefully, it will never be used because it was not as advertised"

> it was not as advertised

I read carefully, and did not see anything to suggest the item was not as advertised. I saw someone complain that they did not like various aspects. Absent an explicit money-back guarantee of satisfaction, I see no reason why the vendor should have to cater to every buyer's demand.

I'd agree that $90 for a single item seems quite high to throw away without contention. My ballpark would be closer to $20-30, because it's not unusual for the fee to be over $10.

But that's my own subjective feeling, and I imagine others put their range higher or lower based on factors like distance to UPS store or Amazon locker, or how much they logistically have on their plate.

I had a similar experience, contacted Amazon support and they just refunded me.

From what I hear from Amazon sellers if a buyer contacts Amazon directly in this case Amazon will (usually?) refund the buyer no matter what the seller's return policy is.

Maybe the buyer has to have "Prime" though?