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Comment by fenwick67 | Hacker News Reader

> Additionally, Amazon said that it's introducing "returnless refunds," a feature that the company said is "highly requested by sellers." The change enables sellers to offer a refund without taking back an item that may be expensive to ship and hard to resell.

Wow, I can literally just say "I don't like it", and there's a chance they'll literally just give me my money back, but let me keep it?

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Amazon customer support has told me to discard items that've been defective, rather than ship them back, on multiple occasions. There's probably an internal policy about how many of these can be performed by a customer, but it's extremely convenient when they let you.

This is valuable also where there are places of clear mis-fit in the system such as when I received spoiled food through Amazon. The bag was torn open and product spoiled, coating everything, and I was requested to mail it back before I could receive a refund.

There was no alternative course, it felt maddening, especially considering I had submitted photos and knew there was no chance for their resale.

On the other hand, recently I received a different color item than what I ordered. Since I didn't want to go through the hassle of returning, I asked them to refund the price difference. They refused to do that and asked me to return. The refund would have been cheaper than returning and shipping a new one.

The two colors were different prices?

This is often the case with fashion and/or sports items, the more popular colour combinations costing more.

Running shoes for instance: when I was last buying a pair of trail trainers the brightly coloured version of the shoe I currently prefer was being offered considerably cheaper than the all-black-except-high-vis-strips version. This was from the same sellers too, it wasn't due to the listing offering items from multiple outlets as is sometimes the case.

I would have preferred the darker version but I'm perfectly happy not to care about colour to save a bit of cash to spend on something else, but if I had paid the extra, as someone buying a fashion item to match an overall look might well do, and not got that version anyway I'd be expecting a cost-free replacement.

I have commonly seen this among products where there is a color choice. Here's a specific example: https://www.amazon.com/Walkers-Game-Ear-Razor-Electronic/dp/...

Very common

Search ps4 dual shock controller on walmart.com.

Beats headphones

Apparel.

Etc

The cost of the item vs shipping cost matters too. I've had it done a bunch of times for less than $10 items.

I had it happen for a MacBook charger I bought on Amazon which turned out to be an obvious counterfeit.

I was under the impression that since it's illegal to knowingly send counterfeit goods through the postal service[1] they can't accept returns of counterfeit goods.[2]

[1] I don't know about FedEx or UPS but probably against their TOS.

[2] This is also eBay's policy as well - http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/money-back-guarantee.htm...

>If a buyer suspects that an item is counterfeit, and there are strong indicators that the item is counterfeit, we don't require the buyer to return the item to the seller. The buyer agrees to cooperate with us to ensure the proper disposal of the item. In such instances, we refund the buyer for the full cost of the item and original shipping, and the seller reimburses us for the refund. The buyer may not sell the item on eBay or elsewhere.

I had a $180 car battery that was supposed to fit according to their site but didn't. They refunded me and said they couldn't have me ship it back (I'm assuming because it's a hazardous material), so a friend wound up with a free battery. That was pretty surprising to me.

Can you give examples of what you mean by a defective product?

Do you mean the legal definition[1], more or less as in "unsafe"? Because if so, the reason they are likely telling you to discard defective product is so it can't be used as evidence in a liability case in the instance an unsafe product has caused any harm.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_defect

"A product defect is any characteristic of a product which hinders its usability for the purpose for which it was designed and manufactured."

This does not imply "unsafe".

I don't think you read the second sentence defining the legal definition:

>Product defects arise most prominently in legal contexts, where the term is applied to "anything that renders the product not reasonably safe"

Wouldn't having the customer ship it back before you give them a refund decrease the chance that they'll keep it and use it against you?

No if you ship a defective product back to Amazon, one that has caused injury, and they got rid of it and you sued, their act could and would likely be considered * spoilation of evidence*. As a result Amazon could be sanctioned by a court and have the burden of evidence shift against them (i.e. no longer do the plaintiffs/you have to prove the product was defective, now the defense would have to prove the product wasn't defective).

I've sold a product on Amazon before and had it warehoused and fulfilled by Amazon. Part of the problem with accepting returns is that you can't personally vet it for quality and correctness and when Amazon ships back out a returned item that the first buyer messed with, it would then have a high probability of getting returned again and/or result in negative feedback or a profit-destroying consumption of time trying to make the second buyer happy. It was then cheaper and easier to just have Amazon destroy all returned items, which is what I did.

Part of me says that the person receiving a refund has no right to the item anymore and should return it on principle, but other side of me realizes it's just a waste of shipping and handling resources when I was having the item trashed anyways. As long as Amazon is actively trying to prevent fraud, I'm not really concerned about this policy.

I got a pair of headphones from an Amazon seller, that stopped working after a week. The seller said they'd send me a new pair after I download a PDF from their website, that had a stencil of wired headphones cut in 3 parts, cut my own headphones into 3 parts and align them on the stencil, take a photo of that thing with my name attached, and send them the jpg. Not kidding.

The good news: I still have the replacement pair a year down the line, and they work well.

I recently had this experience. I ordered a pack 5 toyota oil filters for my vehicle. When the box arrived, I was shocked that where was only 1 filter in it.

I contacted amazon customer service and, at first they wanted me to ship the one filter back, so I would receive a full refund. I told them that I'd like the other 4 shipped to me, and that I need to keep the 1 filter as I was planning on doing an oil change that day. BTW, 1 filter costs like $5, so the cost of shipping it back would have outweighed the benefit.

They refunded me and told me I don't have to return the filter.

There are a number of items whose quantity is listed in the title/description rather than the item quantity when you add it to your cart. I think this causes confusion at their warehouses, and the pickers/packers are messing up. I had the same issue happen with a set of 2 pillows, only 1 arrived in the box... amazon shipped me 2 more free of charge.

Their customer service has been spot on. Considering I spend probably a few grand a year buying stuff from amazon, I'd expect no less from their customer service.

Many sellers will, yes, if it's cheaper then accepting the return, especially if a return is not sellable or the item requires special handling (hazardous materials, weight) Amazon pretty much forces sellers to accept returns for most reasons, from what I understand.

Some examples from my life:

I've bought a book from eBay that was advertised as the wrong edition. When I complained (I wanted a specific edition and I made sure the listing was for the edition I wanted) the seller told me to just donate the book and gave me my money back. It was a cheap used book, it would probably have cost more to ship it back than the seller would have gotten reselling it.

I ordered cat litter from jet.com. Cat litter was crushed and broke open during shipping and spilled everywhere. I took a picture and asked for my money back. They didn't ask me to ship the litter back even though about 60-70% of the litter was usable (and I used it). It would have been a mess to ship back litter like that plus expenses.

Edit: just thought of a third example. My parents ordered an armoire from Wayfair that must have been dropped badly in shipping, the side was extremely bowed out. The thing was like 5 feet tall and really heavy, it was solid oak. They just shipped them a new one because a return of such a big item would have been totally infeasible without sending a truck or special courier service. Some rando on Craigslist was really happy to come pick it up so he could fix it.

I've had this happen multiple times. I have, on a few occasions, received defective products, or requested to return something I didn't want, and Amazon simply refunded me or shipped me a replacement without asking any follow-up questions.

I suspect Amazon's decision process, when you request a refund or return, may have something to do with your purchase history, and also the return and defect rate of the product in question.

You can already do that on some things sold by amazon. Not that I've tried to but I've had more cases of amazon just telling me to keep things, especially if they took too long to deliver.

Items shipped by sellers in China often have such asymmetric shipping costs that the cost of returning them to China might be more than the entire item is worth.

I already had a small business do this for me on Amazon voluntarily. They refunded my small purchase price and asked me to donate the item. I felt so guilty I wouldn't have even asked for a refund if I had known. You bet I did give the item away.

> I felt so guilty...

I've had that same feeling, and I sort of cynically wonder if that's not the point. It is difficult to have ire for a seller when you feel like you've just taken advantage of them.

I ordered a 3-pack of baking mix, one of which was damaged in shipping. They couldn't accept the damaged material and insisted on shipping out a new 3-pack. I got five packs for the price of 3.

That's cool, I guess, but didn't I just get rewarded for the shipper's mistake? That doesn't feel right.

More often, if a product is obviously defective, or the wrong item was shipped, they may say just keep it (or throw it away) and send a replacement or refund.

I've had this happen with multiple companies. (Wrong t-shirt, warranty replacements on some items, credit card extended warranties, a couple of ebay sellers where the item was defective, etc.)

Definitely something I wouldn't abuse, and I hope others don't abuse, because it increases the efficiency of the system - both by reducing impediments to buying things and by reducing overall cost when things go wrong.

Probably some kind of reputation system prevents this from happening all the time.

Tuft and Needle lets you donate the mattress to a local shelter and get your money back.

I would imagine they'll require some basic proof. There are plenty of things it just doesn't make sense to ship back because they can't resell them - they'll just dispose of them like you do. It isn't flawless (neither is the current system - you can always damage the product and claim it was like that when you opened the box) - but it just makes sense sometimes.

Wayfair has done this. Sent them pictures of a (fairly pricey) door handle/deadbolt set that had scratches on it. They said to just keep it and do whatever with it, they'll mail out another one. Super convenient, and now the door from my garage has a nice handleset with just a few small scratches.

Additional data points:

I've had this happen on a defective basketball backboard (and adjustable armature) that I purchased, and on a car battery that wasn't defective, but was no longer needed because the car it was intended to go into when I ordered it was destroyed in a fire before the battery arrived.

In the first case I expect it was the size/price to ship it back. In the second it may be because of postal regulations but I'm not positive (they shipped it to me without a problem, but perhaps they don't want to risk return shipment on an item that may or may not be defective so they have a blanket policy).

Both cases required me to contact Amazon directly because the items were not listed in the "return this" section of their respective orders.

I mean, that's how digital refunds work, for the stores that support them. It's not like they need you to reupload the game code you downloaded from their server.

But you can turn that game license off. You can't turn off a couch.

For a warranty return, once I had to send a picture of the cut power cable.

Basically, evidence it was destroyed was sufficient.

Sure, this is the only possible remedy for some things.

For example, Amazon delivered an item of mine to the wrong address. They refunded me even though I didn't return the item.

It happened to me about 6 years ago with a $650 camera I I bought from Amazon Marketplace. There wasn’t anything wrong with it, something was missing from the box.

So I called Amazon and explained and they refunded the money before I knew what was happening. I said ok thanks, what should I do with the camera? She said you can throw it in the trash.

Of course since they made me a customer for life They’ve done quite well from me.

Anecdotally, they do it for stuff like pillows already, especially cheap ones - it's hard to resell, so they'll eat the cost.

I’ve had it happen when I ordered a CAT6 cable I ended up not needing. I tried to return it and they never send a shipping label. I called support and they said to keep it. This was ~2 years ago and an easy item to resell.

I don't want a used network cable... Someone else's bits have been all through that. Gross.

I think it's opt-in for the seller. Either they pay for return shipping, or let the customer keep it.

I have done exactly that on a faulty ipad to hdmi cable (though not through amazon), they just send me a new one. A good thing they did too, I was kinda pissed at them and might not have brought from them in the future.

That actually just happened to me! I got a bracelet I was very unhappy with. I hit the return button and it said I don't have to send them anything back. It was kind of crazy!

How many times can you do that before someone flags your account up for review of some sort?

I went through a period where I was building out an A/V studio where I was returning stuff sometimes twice a week. Never heard a complaint, but I got nervous so I actually reached out to their customer service--"hey, I'm building out this studio, I'm getting a lot of stuff that doesn't fit my needs/doesn't fit what the box says, I don't want to get flagged", the rep put a note in my file, never heard a peep.

It's probably not a discrete number or even heuristic (like number of years you've been in good standing). Rather it's probably another part of their machine learning backend that tracks trends and user behavior as a whole.

But as a guess, if you're a new account, maybe 2 or 3 times. For every year you've been a member, probably 1.5 times that number per year up to some max (let's say, 7).

I returned three smartphones over the course of a few months, because each had some hardware failure. I kept the fourth one. Amazon sent an email asking for details. I guess that behavior flagged me somehow.

There's likely a bunch of factors that go into it. Might even be a score that is updated based on your purchase, return history, length of having a prime membership, amount spent on amazon etc.

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