Ask HN: How Did You Think About Having Children? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: How Did You Think About Having Children?

37 pointssp52758 comments

I'm noticing that it seems to be a serious competitive disadvantage to have children if you're in tech. You get more locked in to your path, can't take as many risks, and may have a lot less free time to experiment and improve. That doesn't even factor in time for more personal things like exercise, reading, having hobbies, meeting/making friends, vacationing, etc. You obviously have to commit to being a lot more selfless once you have children.

If someone is in their 30s, married, but hasn't hit their really time-intensive stretch goals (be it entrepreneurship, financial independence, becoming an industry leader, achieving a senior title, and so on), how should (s)he approach the decision? What are the ways you can stay competitive and dynamic? What compromises are unavoidable? Is it unreasonable to expect to be both professionally successful as well as a great parent? Under what circumstances would it be advisable to delay? How long? Should a really ambitious person seriously consider not having children at all?

Child birth is probably the most consequential inflection point in peoples' lives and yet many seem to rush into it headlong without asking the right questions. I'm sure there's some great collective wisdom out there on the subject. It would be especially helpful to hear from people who decided to remain childless.

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I've yet to see any meaningful "collective wisdom" on whether to be a parent. Since you seem not to see the value, it is probably best for you not to do it--the payoff is likely not something your quantification would measure, but the cost would be.

The value isn't quantified in economic terms, because you can't quantify love.

It might help me hit some achievement milestone if I had no kids, perhaps, but that would feel shallow. Maybe I'd have built something that made a nice bullet point on a director's resume, but no one will be singing songs of my heroic deeds in the halls of Valhalla.

For me, kids are great because I have lots of love and affection to share. I've never had such unreserved un-self-conscious love as I get from my children. When I walk in the door after a long day, I get a rock star greeting--three little people cheering my name. I'm never lonely anymore. I have lots of great memories. I get tons of cuddles. I get to pass on things I've learned. Providing a good upbringing feels meaningful.

Staying competitive on an hours basis is hard, but would not be hard if my spouse was a stay-at-home mom, which would be feasible. Staying competitive on a knowledge-basis is not hard.

I largely agree with what you're saying. Out of curiosity, what makes you think I don't see the value? I omitted the 'pros' of having children simply because they seem self-evident. I don't think I'd bother asking this question at all if I didn't appreciate the argument in favor.

You didn't list any pros. For people who don't want children, I imagine many don't value the pros, or even see them as pros.

You asked specifically to hear from childless folks--usually that type of request is a self-affirmation from someone who has already decided, but wants to buttress their decision.

Also, you seemed like you were trying to quantify the decision, but with matters of the heart, usually people just know.

I think people who don't want kids actually do ask this question often. There can be spouses or parents who apply tremendous pressure, and the decision is massive, and irreversible.

It sounds like you're considering it more than your post indicated. To give you perspective, they are tough to raise, and I found it tough to be an entrepreneur when they are under 4. It totally changes your cash requirements, especially if you do something like buy a house.

Entrepreneurship is like having a baby, and might be fulfilling in some similar ways (not love, though!). For me, while they were young, it was easier to work for someone. Now that they sleep, I've saved up and will probably make another run at entrepreneurship. But in terms of success at my day job, I don't feel like they really stopped me, or that any trade off to optimize day job success would have been worth considering.

How should (s)he approach the decision?

By looking into one's heart, and deciding what one really wants out of life.

Financial constraints are one thing. But one really shouldn't sacrifice truly important life goals (like having children; or even moving to the same city to be with one's partner) for the sake of this industry's (really quite shallow and ego-aggrandizing) "meritocratic" standards. Or even weigh them on the same scale.

To put it another way: By all means, don't give up your creative and intellectual goals -- and don't foolishly neglect your baseline financial goals, either. But really, just screw this idea of "achieving a senior title", or "becoming an industry leader", or any of that stuff.

I mean, these things OK if they come as the result and after-effect of creative and productive work. But the moment one starts to think "Wait, should I have kids with this wonderful person like I've always been dreaming of, or... should I keep plugging away in the hopes being... recognized and chattered about in major media outlets" -- I'd suggest that that's not only where one starts to lose perspective on what's really important in life; one also starts to lose perspective on what it really means to be genuinely creative and successful (by personal, or any other standards) in the first place.

Which after all comes down to: throwing caution to the wind, and putting all your energies into what you think is important and meaningful - and not what other people think is important. (And certainly not what journalists in the business media think is important).

Should a really ambitious person seriously consider not having children at all?

I would put it this way: decide what your ambitions really are, and act accordingly.

If having kinds happens to fall into the space of "ambitions" for you - that's great. If not, that's fine also.

But the "should I have kids or follow my ambitions?" line of analysis seems like a mental trap.

The question is - what are your priorities in life?

I'm sterile, I will have no biological descendents. yet I have an increasing number of children and grandchildren. On the day I got married, I became a father to three boys, 6,5 and 3. Within 2 years, I became father to a 13 year girl. As time has gone on, three of them got married, so I increased to 4 sons and 3 daughters. In recent years, that has changed to 5 sons and 4 daughters, and 5 grandchildren.

It is all a perspective of what is important. Financially, life has had its ups and downs. There have been many health problems along the way, extended family conflicts, etc, etc, etc.

Would I change any of it. yes, in all the areas that I could have done better by my wife and children. But otherwise no. As my wife, children and grandchildren have made life incredibly exciting. Even with an autistic grandson and the problems that autism brings, I wouldn't give that up for anything. Not even to have him not have autism.

Life brings many challenges and we grow through them. Work is a minor part of life not the major event.

But the funny thing is that knowing God (Father, Son and Spirit) personally is the very thing that has rounded out, completed and made my entire life with my family worth every problem, trouble, difficulty, disease, cancer, accident, death and misery that has happened.

I have hope for now and the future, irrespective of what may be happening in the world right now.

So I'll go back to my question - what are your priorities in life?

I'm going to be the contrarian of the thread and tell you that children and family are the ultimate competitive advantage. They make you focus and become more of a realist. I say this as I have become a surprise father (we adopted a niece to keep her out of states custody, sad story) in May and something about having someone so tiny and unconditionally loving depend on you really changed my out look. It's hard to put into words how I feel and what's changed but my side projects I fiddled with now either have a purpose or they're shelved. I am of a singular mind to march forward and provide for my wife and child. I think that's what makes someone successful singular mindset and a clear goal and a family and child have sure provided that for me.

When I ended up having children (adopting them, actually), my time for extra activities outside work went to zero. However, as the children have been getting older, I've been getting slowly and gradually getting that extra time back. I try to allocate some time to spend with the children and some time for learning new stuff or working on a side project. It's worked out pretty well.

I have had no problem with professional development, and I think it's because I've worked at places with reasonable work hours. It might have not gone so well if I had been working at a place that expected 10 hour days (or longer) or lots of weekend work. Instead, it's been 8 hours a day on weekdays for the most part, with the occasional bit of work outside that area.

I've become a tech lead and moved into a senior role with no problems. My company is pretty family friendly and they value my abilities and experience even if I insist on making time to spend with my children.

I lost a lot of time to spend on fun activities, but once the children become older, it's also a lot of fun to do activities with them. I got my kids the Robot Turtles board game to teach them programming, and they've had a lot of fun with that.

So yes, having kids will significantly reduce the amount of time to spend on all those things you used to do, but it doesn't have to mean stagnation. I've still been able to make progress, although I certainly haven't had time for entrepreneurship.

So you have to decide whether the reward (children and interacting with them every day) will be worth the effects it will have on your life. For some people, it's very much worth it. For other people, it's not.

Life doesn't have to be go go go until you die or retire. You can slow down and enjoy it without becoming a dinosaur. In our field, demand is high, so we don't have to spend every waking moment trying to get ahead.

That's a really thoughtful answer. Thanks!

Deciding whether to have kids is not a spreadsheet problem. Using hard numbers you'll never see a profit. It's always negative. But there are so many more benefits to parenting that you can't put into numbers. You either want them or not. If you want to pass on your wealth then you should have them.

Some people just don't want them. They are hard to raise and there is always the risk of heart breaking pain even if everything is great. Are you one of the ones that don't want them? Take a hard look and decide.

If you are one of the ones that want them and look at the future and feel bad that you never had any then START.

If you do have them then make sure you're a loving parent. Having parents that love you is worth anything and everything.

Being a mother myself and having witnessed many of my friends become parents, if there's one take away for me it is this - no amount of preparation can get you ready for gamut of feelings you'll experience as a parent. Yes, there is exhaustion, there is self-doubt, there is an overwhelming feeling of being alone (especially until the baby starts to talk). But, there is also the inexplicable high of being completely responsible for shaping the future of another human being, experiencing the joy of being a hero in the eyes of your child.

So I am not really sure I buy the "rushing without asking questions" part. I don't know what questions would prepare for this unique experience. Please understand that I am, in no way trying to demean you or question.

Another thing that motherhood has brought about is that every problem gets put into a larger context. Small workplace squabbles do no seem as important as teaching math or alphabet to your child. As an engineer, I also see that I have become more efficient with my attention span, time management, energy management and most importantly content with life.

I also wanted to address some of the other points you raise with some anecdata

- I do MOOCs after I put the child to bed - No facebook or channel surfing for me. I use my time and call friends/family on the phone (usually after my child leaves for school and right before I head to work). So in a sense, I use my time for synchronous, deeply meaningful relationships vs. trying to be up to date with 300+ people on FB

- I don't get to go to post work social events. But that's a tradeoff I will accept because it means I pick up the kid from school, go the park or take my child to her classes

- We have people over for lunch/dinner, so I do keep in touch with friends - probably more deeply than before

- The things that truly take a hit are doing things on an impulse - shopping on a weekday or eating out randomly. All of which are completely doable with some planning ahead of time.

So for me, it has been about planning, managing time and energy and trying to do fewer things well.

> it seems to be a serious competitive disadvantage to have children if you're in tech

Children are generally competitive disadvantages for all adults with careers, not just for those in tech.

But competitive advantages are not why people have children.

That's specific to western -first world nations in the last 100 years.

In the 1800's in the US, you would need more children to run the farm.

In third world nations, children are still a form of retirement planning.

Unless you're a farmer in a developing country.

Only after the kids hit a certain age.

I'm 45, no kids, by choice. It's not because of my career, it's just because of the life I choose to live. I would simply not live a single day of my life the same if I had children. I do live every single day of my life as I choose (and like).

If you have kids, you don't have that choice anymore. You can adjust your needs, your expectations to the presence of kids... but it's a different story, isn't it?

For me, it's all about freedom. YMMV

I think its the difference between committing to one large choice over the long term vs. the flexibility to have many small choices over time.

I am sorry for you, because you'll never experience unconditional love in this life...

Glad if you're happy with your life, but don't be sorry for me, I'm very happy with mine.

Also, thinking about what unconditional love may be, and reading a bit about it, doesn't entice me to change my mind (it's very badly defined...)

I'm a parent, but even love of a child is not "unconditional". There are too many ugly counterexamples to easily disprove that. The bond between parent and child is special, for sure, but I do believe you can build such bonds with people that are not your offspring - you just have to spend a ridiculous amount of time together and sacrifice a lot for them and that's rare for people that aren't your children (because you're not biologically programmed to do it).

Agreed, everything is possible, but how likely to happen with someone who is not your child (either biological or adopted), as you said it is very rare indeed...

Can't say that. Maybe he has a dog.

Unfortunately it is not the same...

Why is this even a consideration, people seem to create a new one every now and then and become all giddy about it. If there is no shortage, we should not be creating more humans. I wish human birth was more regulated. Once born, if people can't afford, properly maintain or educate their kids, it automatically becomes government's problem to fix, with all of us having to pay with taxes or otherwise having to live with. There is little if any, personal or economic benefit to having created one as individual.

curious, how old are you?

How old would I have to be to make my comment look understandable to you for my age?

<25.

Everything I have ever read, seen or heard suggests to me that plans to make babies need quite a lot of buffering on your time frames in ways that can account for kids showing up vastly sooner than intended or vastly later than intended. Almost no one seems to take this into account.

Children are complimentary to most endeavors. Maybe with them you won't get as far when measured by some metrics. But with them you will certainly better understand the world at large. That increased knowledge helps no matter what you pursue.

Another perspective is when should you start a 20+ year endeavor? There is no a priori optimal time so long as you are baseline ready for the financial and emotional responsibility.

This is obviously a really complex and personal decision, but I wanted to focus on this bit:

> If someone is in their 30s, married, but hasn't hit their really time-intensive stretch goals (be it entrepreneurship, financial independence, becoming an industry leader, achieving a senior title, and so on), how should (s)he approach the decision?

Do you really think you'll accomplish your major goals by some point in your 30s? I sure hope I don't - I hope to keep setting and accomplishing (and failing to accomplish) career goals until I retire, if I ever do. And I don't mean necessarily an up-and-to-the-right trajectory, but at least keeping things challenging and fulfilling throughout. I know this isn't what you intended, but it makes it sound like the goal is to get to a certain career "plateau", if you will, and then have kids and rest on those laurels.

I also think it's healthy and a good thing to have your kids see you challenge yourself in your career, to succeed, and yes, to struggle. When they're young, they won't notice, but when they're older, what are you going to say? "Well, son, I worked really hard before you were born so that now I don't have to and we can play catch!" - not a great role model for that child, IMHO.

Even within my local community (far from SV), if I think of some of the most successful tech entrepreneurs, quite a few of them are parents of many children (5 or 6, even!) and had those children long before their businesses became the success they are today.

I don't know if children are as big of a "disadvantage" as we might think. Sure, there are practical limitations, but personally, I found that becoming a parent forced me to become much more focused, prioritized, and productive with the time that I did have available. While the children are young, I certainly cannot be as productive (in total) as I was before, but I have no doubt that once they are older, in school, my productivity will blow away my pre-parental accomplishments due to the increase in efficiency.

As far as risk-taking - this is obviously just an N of 1, but I quit my FT job weeks after our first child was born to go consulting/freelance after a 10-year career as a 9-5er. It's been 3+ years and they've been the most successful and happy I've had. Business is good and I'm also looking into more entrepreneurial opportunities - something I did nothing of when I was single or married without children.

In Asia, children are a retirement scheme. Sure, there are pensions and build a board. But in case of illnesses or strokes and so on, children are expected to take care of you, because nurses certainly won't. Children are also a measure of wealth - someone with a mansion and no kids is still considered poor.

If you build a business empire, your children are the ones who manage it and continue running it. If you make mistakes while building a business, you have someone to explain it to who can learn from them and do much better.

Plus there is the very biological requirement of passing on your genes. I don't believe anyone can truly be dead as long as their genes go on.

Perhaps the most productive and ambitious person in this world is Elon Musk, and he has 6 kids.

You'll notice most people (of all ages) who have kids will say they are the best thing in the world. Hard work but it's worth it, in their opinion (how could it be otherwise?? How mean/bitter someone has to be to say their kids were a waste of life? A lot).

Conversely, people without kids will fall into two camps: the young who will say they are being pragmatic but probably aren't sure they won't regret this in the future... And the old people who either discovered late in life they wanted kids or not. The latter is the more interesting perspective but I don't think you'll get that many answers from old people without kids here.

I just had a baby boy two months ago, I also work and go to school at the same time. My wife is staying home to raise him but she is quite content.

Having a kid forces you to think about what you're leaving behind on the planet. The realization that there's a little one who is going to look up to you for every little thing makes you really question and think about your own point of view, your own ways of doing things.

I felt like I became a leader when I had my son. It changes you in a way that nothing else quite can. It opens your heart. Check out The beginning of life on netflix. It's quite an eye opening piece.

I would almost posit that if you are going to be successful, then you can certainly be successful regardless of having a kid or not.

I also don't think any material success is quite so valuable as the experience of having a child. I know millionaires that decided to never have kids, and I wouldn't say they regret it, because that may be harsh, but they certainly would reconsider their choices.

I think world view defines a lot of it as well. I subscribe to my own esoteric beliefs. I believe in karma. There is an intangible joy, happiness, and luck that kids bring. They've certainly blessed my life. :)

there is a recent post on the same topic:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14777851

That's a great thread. Anyone who has a comment or is looking for info >>> go there.

Agreed. Thanks for the suggestion @billconan.

As a counterpoint to some platitudes expressed here, let me say this: I unequivocally hate my dad. The reasons are complicated, and personal. But there is something I know with absolute certainty. Everything he ever did in relation to me was with the best of intentions, and he always placed my well-being (as seen by him) before his.

Sure, I mostly feel like an ungrateful wretch. And yes, now that he's an old man, I do treat him very poorly and wish he were dead, mainly because it'd save my feelings of guilt with how I treat him.

I wonder if he resents having me. I will never ask him. I fear his reponse, that he'll deny it.

If you're willing to have a kid, I'm one of the ugly corner cases.

I don't have any kids. I'm beyond the age where they're on my radar. Perhaps a relationship with someone a fair bit younger would change that, but I doubt it.

Good luck.

I'm sorry to hear that. Just to clarify, you're saying you hate your father despite him having done nothing intentionally to deserve that hatred? You're obviously not obliged to go into more detail, but I guess I'm wondering if your message is: "Be warned that you can have kids and do your best as a parent and they might end up hating you anyway"?

The specific part of your comment, which is true, is, yes, I am essentially warning that you can do your absolute best to raise a child and put their interests (as you see it) ahead of your own, and they still may end up hating you for it.

I'm not, however, going to comment on any other part of your response. I just don't want to get into it.

I have a good friend who's in a similar situation and of a similar mindset, so I can empathize to some extent. I'm sorry you're suffering like that.

My kids are always awesome, even if they're occasionally a little _less_ awesome. My wife and I had our first child in our mid-20's after being married for not quite 2 years.

We've both found ways to nurture our careers while we raised a family. There was one 5 month period where our infant daughter would fall asleep around 8:30 PM, so my wife would head to bed also and I'd open the laptop. Between 12:30-1:00 AM, like clockwork, my daughter would wake up needing a dry diaper and a bottle. I'd close my laptop, care for my daughter, and head off to sleep. She'd wake up again before 6, but my wife would get up with her and I'd sleep in until 7:30.

Lots of detail, but you find new rhythms and ways to get things done.

It's a question of priorities, not pragmatics. Your priorities seem to be career-oriented, and making your personal mark on the future. That's okay. Someone with different priorities would be asking things much more like "will my career path allow me to have the kind of family that I want?"

The people who "rush into" having children have gotten to a point where they feel like they can, and so they do. They're employed because they need money in order to have a family. They don't have a family because it's a nice hobby to add meaning to their work-oriented lifestyle.

> It would be especially helpful to hear from people who decided to remain childless.

Looking down the thread it seems that mostly people with kids have answered. Not surprising. Here's one more...

> Child birth is probably the most consequential inflection point in peoples' lives and yet many seem to rush into it headlong without asking the right questions

"the right questions" are very subjective. From your post we can extrapolate one of these questions to be "Will having children give me a competitive disadvantage". A person with no children will see this as one of the "right questions" to ask. A person with children will likely disagree and think the question irrelevant.

I have kids. I'm always surprised to see people talk about prioritising career over children. In hindsight now, my kids are the most important thing in my life. But it's easy to forget that once I was young and wasn't sure if I wanted kids at all. They would impact my life. They would limit my freedom, in career, holidays, commitments, hobbies. This was all accurate, but it was worth it. I could live my life over again, I think I'd probably have them younger, and damn the consequences.

> If someone is in their 30s, married, but hasn't hit their really time-intensive stretch goals ...

If you have an inkling that you want kids, have them as young as possible. There will be no perfect time. Even if you hit all those "time-intensive stretch goals" you mentioned, there will be more reasons to put it off.

On the other hand, if you don't want kids, then don't stress it. there are plenty of childless couples out there who are happy.

That you're posting this at all suggests you do want kids on some level.

Some facts:

- Fertility declines with age. It is increasingly difficult to have a successful pregnancy for every year past the age of 35. IVF is expensive and does not always work.

- Careers also decline with age, though not so much. it is orders of magnitude easier to land a new job at 40 than get pregnant

- The later in life you have your children, the less time you will have with them, and the less time they will have with grandparents

WHY - would it be "especially helpful to hear from people who decided to remain childless?"

Would it be "especially helpful to hear from people" who were going to learn to Scuba dive...and then didn't? How could they help you learn to navigate - what they didn't actually learn?

You're not going to get quality advice from people with comments like this. It's clear you don't like the trade off, so it would leave the reader to guess that you don't have any?

So - what are you looking for? Agreement?

Presumably those people represent the minority opinion/path. Their view would therefore be underrepresented in any sample on the question. We all probably know lots of adults with kids. Maybe not so many without.

Nothing sinister intended there and I apologize if that came across as offensive. I'm genuinely curious about this topic.

Okay - so let's give you the benefit of the doubt.

I would presume that people with children on HN are the minority. Not the other way around (for a number of reasons you mentioned).

Also - As Americans become more self focused ("Self Focused" - because it's a larger category that just - career. It could include love of learning, PHD focused, Yoga, traveling, or even just video games) the birthrate is going down across America.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/03/health/united-states-fert...

Suppose you achieve all of your goals. What have you accomplished?

If your ethics include reducing human suffering, deciding to conceive is unethical due to the quantity of pain your child is almost certain to endure.

> If your ethics include reducing human suffering, deciding to conceive is unethical due to the quantity of pain your child is almost certain to endure.

If your ethics are limited to reducing some simplistic measure of suffering, that seems clear.

OTOH, under such an ethical system, if there were a means to immediately and painlessly eradicate humanity, it would be ethically obligatory to execute it.

If, to go to an opposite extreme, your ethics is limited to maximizing human joy, refraining from having a child would, in most situations, be unethical.

Real world ethical systems (both as expressed and the things people actually believe) tend to be more complex, though, than either extreme simplification.

Interesting viewpoint. I disagree in that I don't believe pain and suffering are the same thing. A lot of philosophy that's been top of mind for me recently suggests we can experience pain without choosing to suffer. Suffering is avoidable but pain is necessary and arguably desirable. However that's a nuanced issue, and you were probably just treating them as semantically equivalent out of convenience/habit.

This argument neglects that net suffering might be reduced by having children. Humans judge the time-value of suffering weirdly. That's part of why few save enough for retirement.

I almost never complain regarding downvotes, but I can't really understand why on a supposedly civilized place like HN, your comment is already displaying grey (downvoted).

Your argument is quite powerful, really.

Procreation is unethical; adoption is a moral imperative.

If you see children as a "serious competitive disadvantage", you've answered your own question...at least for now, you may change your mind later.

Being a parent is the single most challenging and rewarding thing I've ever done. Nothing else comes close. If you're asking a ton of questions, you're not ready.

Children are the best thing that can happen to someone, just see how many depressing posts we are getting from lonely people with nothing but work in their lives, so my advise: don't be selfish and enjoy life or if you want to save every penny, just move under a bridge...

>yet many seem to rush into it headlong without asking the right questions

What are the right questions?

Fair point. Maybe instead: 'enough' questions? The point I was driving at is that having children is perhaps a default behavior, but the dynamics of our industry (and of modern society more generally) have evolved so that the decision creates a lot more friction than it may have in the past. The questions it seems wise to ask (at least to me) are related to mindset and tradeoffs.

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