Ask HN: Do you think career and family is either-or?

My father saw his biggest entrepreneurial success as a father of four kids in junior high and high school. I believe his schedule looked roughly like this:

- 6am work at home

- 8am work at office

- 6pm dinner with family at home, or cheer at kids' athletic events

- 8pm work at home

- 11pm or 12am, sleep

- In early days, he slept on couch near computer to take customer support calls at night.

It wasn't until I was older that I realized how much my family was prioritized.

That said, my mom wanted to be a full time caregiver and did an amazing job of it, so his caregiving responsibilities were not nearly as extensive as my mother's.

>> more than 1 kid, and spouse doesn't work...

>> my partner would like a big family...

>> She also grew up in a richer family than mine. She seems to be used to a higher life quality. I feel some pressure about it. but I have never talked with her about it for the fear for disagreement...

This is not about "career vs. family" but "your way of life vs. her way of life". If you want to build a company and try to make a fortune first and have a family later then you have to tell it to her. She may leave you, but hey, living your own life as a single entrepreneur is much better than living someone else's life as a married man.

There are some assumptions embedded in your question:

1. Entrepreneurs are doomed to "fall", to failure.

2. Being an entrepreneur requires much greater time than being an employee.

Both those are assumptions are true if you go traditional VC-funded startup route, for example.

But there are examples of entrepreneurs who have built companies around a 40-hour work week, and around making money, instead of "5 billion dollar valuation or bust." (VC-funded companies usually go bust, as it turns out.) See https://stackingthebricks.com/how-do-you-create-a-product-pe... for some suggestions on how to go in that direction.

I agree with you. I remember reading an article on Carlos Slim in which he states that entrepreneurship is no reason to forgo family life. (He's happily married)

If you want kids, have kids--the sooner the better (prime reproductive years, younger grandparents, SV ageism, yadayada). If you don't want kids, don't have kids.

If you reread your questions, you will see that they are incredibly career-centric, so you already have the answer that is right for you.

For the love of all that is holy, please don't have kids (or even a relationship for that matter) as some kind of career accessory.

My guess is that he's less career-centric than it sounds on the surface. Reading between the lines, it sounds like he's in at least early 30's, but still awaiting "the moment". So perhaps more of a dreamer.

That's fine, aren't we all. (I am anyway). I'm not so much an entrepreneur nor a careerist, more of a dreamer of "If I had time I'd figure out the General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics discrepancy". I even have ideas. (My day job is as a code monkey).

I ended up having two (so far?) kids at 37 and 39. Initially, I regretted it. Especially the second. With one kid you can kinda still get some free time. With two, you get maybe 30 min per day if you wake up early, but even then you're constantly on high alert with baby monitor(s) in hand. You're not going to solve quantum gravity with that.

Now, youngest is turning 2 soon, I still get not much more than 30 min per day, but I'm happy. I like spending time with them, and let's get real, I wasn't going to solve quantum gravity anyway. OR, as I think to myself, I've got as good a chance of solving it now as I would have if I was single. (Both close enough to zero that calculus doesn't even work anymore).

For that matter, when I'm out of town on assignment, I find I'm actually less productive with my 8 hours of unadulterated free time than I am when I'm limited to an anxious 30 min. And ultimately I wish I was just back home hanging out with them.

So ... that.

It usually works out better when people do what they want to do then figure out the details, rather than when they do what they have to do and stay bitter about it. From his own admission, his partner is the one who wants kids, while the parent life is the one that he fears.

To me it sounds like he's only pondering this to keep his partner happy. That makes sense for small things like watching a show you don't like or bearing with the in-laws. It is a train wreck waiting to happen when it comes to the big stuff like families and careers. For those situations, it's really time to get a different partner.

My answer is very practical but it's close to reality. Time won't be your main concern... money will force you to go back to work to get a 9-5 stable job. If you chose the entrepreneurial route and you haven't even started yet, forget about building a family, unless you've already built a stable business - or - your wife goes back to work right after delivery of your baby. Assuming her salary can support the entire family AND she gets really good health benefits from her employer.

If she doesn't have a job, as a wannabe entrepreneur you won't have much income nor any health benefits. You'll have plenty of time, but no money to live. Having a baby (in the US) costs A LOT of money. Before, during and after.

So don't think too much about building a family if you haven't even started your entrepreneurial journey. Thinking about being distracted by kids at home after work is a 9-5 people's problem. Entrepreneurs can survive with no money. Having kids will make that almost impossible. You can totally build a family now but your personal goals we'll be delayed by a lot of years until your kids become financially independent.

> Time won't be your main concern... money will force you to go back to work to get a 9-5 stable job

I agree 100% with you. The need to support a family is the greatest graveyard of entrepreneurial dreams.

I never worried about it. I just assumed I'd figure it out. But, that is survivor bias. I do know it was sometimes a major motivation to work harder. It was never a guilt thing, just I want to make sure they are OK.

I have 4 boys all healthy and a decent career. It's gone well for me, but there were scary parts...it increased the personal stress a lot in times like when my start-up/s failed.

It never hampered my ambition though. My wife and I are a team. We've spent 6 months plus apart as I pursued start-ups in Texas and during YC. I've never looked at my family as holding me back in any way.

+1 for "My wife and I are a team"

OP absolutely needs to have this discussion with his partner ... if they don't see eye to eye on what their goals are, then it puts the family at risk.

Also +1 for noting survivor bias.

In the talk with his partner, they need to confront head-on the issue that the whole entrepreneurship thing may not work out. Or worse, may be "on the verge of success" for year after year after year. Decide up front where to draw lines and what plan B might be.

> only time he has on his own is after 10pm, as he needs to put his kids into bed first. And often before he has done it, he is too exhausted

This is pretty much my experience too, and I have just one child. Which is more than enough.

I can't help but agree with many of the already voiced opinions, because yes, "it depends". However... in my case, I have gone as far as to state, on several occasions, that if you want to work in tech and retain your sanity there is only one sensible option:

Do. Not. Breed. -- I have come to believe that a good part of this comes from my staunch certainty that bringing a person without their consent to this world is morally corrupt. The planet is over sustainable capacity already. Why should we exacerbate the problem?

However, it's important to note something. Even with my personal opinion being what it is, I am still happy and supportive of anyone making their own decision and going against my conviction. It's their choice and they believe it right. Who am I to judge?

I am not going to claim that my opinion is correct or right. Nonetheless, it's mine.

I have kids and am happy about it, but I'll still add another argument in your favor because I think about it constantly: ageism in tech. You decide to have a family when you're in your 20s or 30s, getting promoted regularly, and everything seems honkey-dorey. Hit 40 and boom, you've got huge expenses in raising these kids but a very tenuous grip on your career, with best earning years perhaps behind you.

Silicon Valley is silly about this bordering on narcissism; many people who work substantially more demanding jobs than technologists have fulfilling family lives.

I don't think time is going to be your biggest issue. I don't know that working long hours in an entrepreneurship setting really helps things. It's more about being smart and productive with the time you do have. 12 hours/day every day working on the same thing would burn you out anyway.

The problem you may run into though is stability. If your spouse isn't planning to work, then you need a stable source of income. When you're single it's far easier to cut back on your expenses than it is when you have kids. You can live in shared housing, eat spaghetti every day, wear the same two shirts for a couple years, and not really be any worse off for it. But you can't really avoid buying diapers.

So, entrepreneurship may be more difficult due to that. And really all outside-of-work ambitions do get tougher. I'd love to go for an advanced degree, and my wife even supports it "in theory". But the reality is, with two young kids at home, there's no time to maintain a stable job, take care of kids in a way that's remotely fair to my wife, and commit to a huge time suck like grad school. And frankly, I'd rather hang out with the kids. Though it did take a couple years to get to that point. There was absolutely regret on my side in the beginning, for quite a while.

Your original question was career vs family though. I think career is fine. As long as your job provides steady income and you're efficient with your time, I don't see any problem that kids would introduce in terms of advancing quickly in your career.

Also note, even entrepreneurship isn't impossible. I've got two friends that started a small consulting company around the same time they had kids. But they had a steady stream of clients at the start and always did good work, and also had enough savings to survive any hiccups they encountered, so it worked out for them. The "unicorn" startup may be more difficult though.

You could go looking for some general demographic information, but this is really very much a personal matter. Some people work their butts off to provide for the family. Some people are too busy working their butts off to bother with a family.

You likely won't get very meaningful responses here because you are asking a question that is far more personal than you realize. And even if you did get deep, meaningful replies from the heart, most of them would not be pertinent because the heart's of other people are not your heart and may not be anything like your heart.

Kids are a big opportunity cost diversion. The focus can be in what they take or how generous you wish to be with your time. I've been curious for sometime to add a children field to Wikipedia biography articles and go about checking on average how less fecund highly successful people are. Like many things in life we're confronted by trade-offs. Children are some of the most awesome additions to life offering great meaningfulness that will outlive a career and yourself.

"Their ambitions seem to be exhausted by their kids and family"

Don't let this discourage you. Yes, it is a lot harder to do anything with family and specially kids. But can you have a great career with a big family ? Absolutely. It just requires a lot more dedication, hard work and commitment from your end.

So don't ask yourself "Career or family". Ask yourself "Do I have it in me to have a great career along with a great family ? ".

Maybe when the kids are in their pre-teen and teenage years this is possible, but with toddlers, I'm skeptical.

If you plan on being there when the kids get home, genuinely want to contribute your half by doing laundry/disciplining kids/teaching/playing with your children/reading stories/putting to bed, you may not be done with evening family time until 9 or 10pm.

Toddlers usually wake around 6am. You have to be rested enough to do it all over again and your professional work. That puts you going to bed at 10pm.

If you're extremely efficient with your time, maybe you can get ahead. But it's definitely a squeeze.

Someone will have to sacrifice somewhere: either you, your spouse, or your kids. I have two kids, and when our second was 6 months old, I quit working to take care of them. I'm a male. We also moved closer for family, to an area that's not great for my career.

I still do side projects and a bit of consulting (remotely), but most of my time is kid or house related. If I wasn't doing this, I'd be a director level manager at some software company probably.

I know a lot of folks where both spouses are working and "successful", but their kids are typically quite the opposite. Freeloaders, lazy, on drugs, still living at home with no plan to leave, etc. It's hard enough to find quality child care, but nothing can replace a present, caring parent.

A family forces you to think about priorities greater than just meeting the deadlines at work.

A family can be stressful OR rewarding.

For me, the family gave me a reason to leave work at a healthy hour. It gave me a "success" when the business was failing.

It kept me from being social isolated by the business.

Having young kids makes you far more efficient. Your time is far more scarce, so you focus much better when you have clear time. You'll also be more refreshed by having time away from the computer, far more empathetic, and develop a far wider social circle of people with similar-aged kids. All of that makes you more human and more effective regardless of your profession.

One big unknown is what will happen after you or your partner has spent a few years as the primary care giver. The non-primary care giver will have to be flexible, adaptable and accept the situation will almost certainly change as the children progress from babies to school-aged.

If you are of an average first child age, have 2 children, live in a developed country, and live a statistical ~83 years, you'll have significant time obligations to young kids for ~15 years. Then again you'll have a relationship with them for ~50 years, so it's a small fraction of time for the many decades of love.

If you're going to be a leader, have some kids. It engenders understanding, compassion, and common sense. The last thing tech needs is another Travis Kalanick.

It should engender those things but it won't for everyone. Plenty of examples out there of where it hasnt.

A wise and respected co-worker once told me "know your limits" when I asked him how he managed to stay at a place for 10 years when it did not provide professional challenges or growth. At the time, I was young and "unlimited" and took his advice to mean that I should settle for something less than ideal, but since years have passed and I have a family of my own now, I look back on that advice with a different view: when you know your limits, you can work around them. I recently learned I have ADD. That simple knowledge has helped me to put little countermeasures in place that help to balance out my limitations; I pat myself down for the four essentials that should be with me when I leave the house and I put those easentials in the same place when I come home each day. Knowing your limits professionally means you can work to mitigate those limitations. If you know you don't have time to waste anymore because of your obligations, well then figure out what you want from life and use your limited time to accomplish those goals. Set realistic expectations for yourself based on what you know you can do, when you can do it, how you can do it.

Truthfully, I know what he really meant with his words: he had a wife and family who were his primary concern and he was happy to put his professional concerns on the back burner to give them a good life and to be able to enjoy that good life with them.

I think it forces you to use your time effectively. And yeah, I can't stay up every week day during that slot of quiet after ten but that's ok because I use my time better when I do. I personally wish we'd started the family a little sooner because that tough period only lasts a few years. (For context I was 30) I also started a company around the the time our first child was born. It did not work for the usual reasons - not because of the family. Burn rate is higher with the family though.

My brother just gave birth to his first child and is a postdoc in physics at a prestigious school. He has no free time. He is not afraid. That's what keeps him going. He's up for the challenge and works really hard. He bikes to work sometimes twice in a day. He cooks, takes care of baby stuff, planning, etc. I don't know how he does physics, well I do. He loves everything he does and gives it his all.

In my opinion: depends on what "career" means for you.

I am 25 and I am managing two start ups (as VP and CEO), both of which will have multi-million exits in the next five years. In addition, I have a couple of side projects I am involved with, mostly company shares managed through my holding.

So, I'd say I am a career guy in the middle of that very career. And at this point, there is hardly any time for family things. I often don't have weekends, nor holidays. And I work like 14hs every day.

However, friends of mine are working for large enterprises, and they have a 40-50h week in middle-management. They also have their career but with time for family.

So I would say it really depends on the kind of career path someone's taking.

If you were CEO of the one startup and no side projects how would that affect your hours? Would you have time for kids do you think (should you want to)?

Business and entrepeneurship are a means to an end. Life is about relationships with people you love. Although trite, it's very true that nobody on their death bed wishes they spent more time at the office.

Thank you everybody for replying to my question. I guess this question is meaningless now for me, as my girlfriend has broken up with me last night and she has decided to go with another guy, fundamentally because of my hesitation for marriage.

I analyzed her too logically, weighing too much about our differences. I didn't treat her as a teammate to solve our common problems. We didn't communicate enough.

The past few hours was the darkest time of my life. Only now I realized how much I loved her. I regret it so much.

She made her choice just as you have to make yours. I feel your pain but these things have away of working out one way or the other.

I have a different take on late marriage: maybe its not the career that's holding you back, maybe its the quest for compatibility, the need to have a spouse that understands and supports your goals. This carries more weight than we normally give credit for. This may be why driven men who marry early frequently get divorced.

Just a theory

i am sorry.

Family gave me a great boost

Because I love them, it not only game me a noble reason to be productive, but they also made sure that I did it efficiently so I can spend time with them.

I guess I'm lucky in that I don't have much of a career mapped out. I enjoy coding and although I'd like to run a business in the future it's going to be a lifestyle one most likely.

Ironically my (our) net wealth has increased fastest while having children simply by buying a suitable house before a boom kicked off in my city. Outstripping my wages and any E(V) from starting a business!

I think every story is different, and it all depends on the individual circumstances. I worked for a startup where the founder was a "family man" - with an extensive family, and he was doing great at work afaik. Wasn't sacrificing much on either front. He did have to employ a part-time nanny, to free up time for his wife and himself could both simultaneously have good careers.

Family is a big responsibility but also a reason to try harder to be successful. Keep in mind that a day has only 24 hours and eventually its a compromise between your career and family life. If you manage to strike the right balance you'll be happy. If your career fails though don't blame it on your family cause it's as likely that you'd have failed without one.

At the age of 41, after a decade of freelancing plus raising two kids, I am in dire need of leisure time. Ok ok call it midlife crisis. But I also see that in all my friends lives. I don't know yet what to remove from that full/filled life, for some leisure time.

If you have a strong career ambition and have also raised a big family (more than 1 kid, and spouse doesn't work), do you feel that family is a career obstacle or a booster?

You don't want to hear the experiences of those whose spouse does work?

I do. I wrote this based on my personal situation and my current girl friend's (potential wife). She is capable and a very good person. But her field of study isn't as money many as an engineering field.

I believe she will contribute to the family as much as she could (even not financially ). But I can't ask more than that.

She also grew up in a richer family than mine. She seems to be used to a higher life quality. I feel some pressure about it. but I have never talked with her about it for the fear for disagreement, whereas I lean toward a Minimalism, less materialized life. "live tiny, die never.", but with a family, I guess I won't have the freedom to choose my way of life.

I explicitly said "spouse doesn't work", because I want to hear from extreme examples.

> She also grew up in a richer family than mine. She seems to be used to a higher life quality. I feel some pressure about it. but I have never talked with her about it for the fear for disagreement, whereas I lean toward a Minimalism, less materialized life.

Sounds like a recipe for resentment and disaster. You guys should hash this out and have a discussion before you move forward in your relationship. Differences in lifestyle and finances are the #1 reason for divorce.

Best of luck!

> Differences in lifestyle and finances are the #1 reason for divorce.

I have to disagree. Even at the risk of being snarky, I believe that marriage is the #1 reason for divorce.[0]

0: http://vintage.failed-dam.org/tomato.htm

Career is a spectrum. If you're charging hard & working 12+ hours a day then yes family isn't happening. There are loads of jobs where 8 hours + family is very viable though.

Always family first