Roomba's Next Big Step Is Selling Maps of Your Home to the Highest Bidder | Hacker News Reader

Roomba's Next Big Step Is Selling Maps of Your Home to the Highest Bidder

gizmodo.com

159 pointsourmandave65 comments

This smells like cheap and irresponsible journalism. For one, the CEO is quoted as saying “There’s an entire ecosystem of things and services that the smart home can deliver once you have a rich map of the home that the user has allowed to be shared.” Further evidence is given in the form of part of the TOS where you essentially agree that if iRobot goes under, the buyer will get all the data. Obviously.

That's one blatant ignoring of the CEO's full statement, and one unfounded misinterpretation of the terms of service. Hardly justification for both the title and the premise of the article.

That's the problem with journalism today though. With ad based revenue platforms, a view is a view. The content itself doesn't matter, only a headline that makes views does.

I really want to see a subscription system that rewards quality over just views.

Get the New York Times? No seriously, there are long form publications that provide what you want with the model you want. I like Gizmodo. They do some interesting pieces once in a while. But I don't see myself paying $5/month for it.

I am not a fan of advertising as a model for the web. It sucks in terms of UX, and it sucks in terms of motivations for the content providers. This is how we get WikiHow and W3School, and Wikipedia clones. Problem is that it's a model that's simply more profitable than anything else we've tried so far. And you can shame people into paying or try to coax them all you want, but it just won't make as much money.

This is one of the reasons I gladly pay for a LWN subscription. I'd love to see more journalism like that, where insiders are paid a small fee to write articles about subjects they're already experts on.

But then again, my interests are much less in world events or pop culture, and much more in science and engineering, where expertise is more easily measured.

> I really want to see a subscription system that rewards quality over just views.

That's called exactly that, subscription. If you like a news source, subscribe to it and pay the subscription. I could get most of the content of The Economist and the NYT for free, but I subscribe to both.

I would like to believe so too, but if you look at what these subscription based media are writing you'll soon realize they are not free from this either.

Subscription based sites are afraid that they will lose their existing use base if they talk about something their users won't like that they tilt towards writing about what their users want to hear. For example, everyone knows that most mainstream media sites tilt heavily towards left to the point where it's not objective anymore and closer to propaganda.

The problem is much deeper than you think. It's not just about ad vs subscription. It's the fact that you can't make enough money with media nowadays regardless of whether it's ad or subscription. Because they don't make enough money but they want to, they end up making bad decisions to extract as much of their reader's attention out to money as possible.

>This smells like cheap and irresponsible journalism

Of course it does, it's Gizmodo.

Further evidence is given in the form of part of the TOS where you essentially agree that if iRobot goes under, the buyer will get all the data.

As if anyone reads those things.

Also, "highest bidder" is ragebait. There's nothing to indicate Roomba is looking to maximize for short-term profit as opposed to, say, selling the data to the third-party that would please its customers the most, or that made the most strategic sense for the future of the company.

They spy on you, but might choose carefully who they reveal your data to? How nice of them.

The bullet point quoted in the article is not saying "iRobot goes under". Any new sale of shares, even a reorganisation of the company would trigger consent that your data is fair game.

If iRobot agrees that AMZ buys 0.01% of the company, AMZ they get that info and customers already agreed to it. The CEO can now safely say what he said.

"that the user has allowed to be shared."

I appreciate your optimism, but this is or will be probably part of ToS when registering the app and you can't use the Roomba without "aggreeing to share".

I have one of the offline models which seems to randomly crash around and it really is good enough. I wonder if mapping significantly improves anything to justify paying so much more (and apparently having to share the generated map with the manufacturer). Wouldn't it be invalidated every time you move a chair?

I have a Neato (offline version) it does map the room (each time) which is nice but doesn't upload it.

While the title may be a little clickbaity, it's important to note that roomba is making it an all or none feature. If you want to use the mapping feature which gives the product better ability to navigate, you must agree to having your info sold. Definitely not cool.

Roombas do not (currently) remember your home's layout between cleaning sessions.

I have a top-end Roomba bought last year. Every time it runs, it starts by finding a wall and then carefully learning the spacial layout of my home. It then efficiently cleans the entire area, not going over any spot more than once if it can avoid it. Then it goes back to it's home and forgets everything in learned forever.

You can sell the layout to my home to anyone you like Roomba, just for god's sake, have your damn robot remember that layout between cleaning sessions.

It could be doing that just to trick you.

"Robots playing dumb" is a terrifying thought

If you dropped it off in a different room (or house) while it was turned off, how would it know where it was next time it was turned it on?

Try to follow the route and switch to mapping mode if it doesn't match?

Honestly I don't know why the Roombas don't just trace the perimeter. The semi-random probing they do seems inefficient to me. But then I don't know anything about the algorithm they're using, so maybe I'm missing something.

I have a top-end Roomba 980 like the GP is referring to. They don't use random exploration. When you start a cleaning cycle, it begins working in a back and forth cleaning pattern of parallel lines. When it runs out of room to perform the back and forth lines, it moves to a place where there's a "hole" in its map. That may just be a corner behind a chair, or it could be a doorway to a different room. It basically repeats this process until it has filled in all the holes and built a full map of the room, level, or whatever area you're letting it vacuum.

The algorithm definitely isn't perfect. It might clean half of the room where it starts, then wander around and clean most of the house before making its way back to finish that room. Still it seems to work well overall. What really fascinates me is how the algorithm and SLAM mapping gives it very familiar behavioral patterns. For example when it's coming back into a room that it's already visited, it might drive just inside the room, pause, "look" side to side (panning the camera to find landmarks it recognizes), then continue on.

My Neato Botvac works the same way with the one exception that the second it touches my rug it immediately goes over it in a snake pattern without any exploration. The rug is thicker than the floor by about 2-3 cms so I dont know if it has some sort of special programming to recognize rectangular rugs

> cameras

wow I didn't know these have cameras.

I wonder if they'll sell/subpoena the video data as well as the floor plans. I wonder how well secured it is and what the extent of punishment for poorly interpreted imagery will be.

It's only the top few models. It's using some kind of image analysis to recognize landmarks and help it navigate.

The video would have to be processed onboard, because wifi isn't require for the Roomba to work. I'll have to look at my router's logs for the Roomba, it should be pretty obvious if it's doing any amount of video uploading.

Mine doesn't seem as straightforward. It goes into "clean this space" mode and does the parallel pattern, but also seems to do a lot of, "hey, what's in this direction" randomly.

It's not the top end model though

That's a topcoder/codeforces algorithm competition sized problem.

I've noticed this as well. I used to have a Neato XV21, but I got tired of dealing wiht costly filters and that it ate all of my cables. I do miss it because it was efficient and notified me when the dirt bin was full.

I have a Neato and although it doesn't "remember" the layout (I mean, layouts can change, things get moved etc) it usually only takes around 3-5 seconds for it to scan the room and then it's on its way. So I do not see it as an issue or inconvenience. Is the Roomba different in that respect?

I remember seeing Roombas a couple of years ago and they were very 'dumb' compared to the Neato. Even the top-end model used a pretty basic wall following algorithm whereas the Neato uses laser to scan the room. Do the new, top-end, Roombas not also use a laser now?

But Amazon is definitely not doing anything sketchy with that always-connected camera and microphone sitting in your living room.

Seems like an especially left field whataboutism. Why can't we be concerned about both?

The article specifically mentions Echo. My point was that the prevailing sentiment on HN seems (to me) that Echo is a good, useful product, not an evil spying device.

Really? Because almost every thread I've about it has a discussion on the creepy factor associated.

I've been getting the opposite impression.

You must be reading a different HN than I.

Other submissions: 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14842679

http://gizmodo.com/roombas-next-big-step-is-selling-maps-of-...

Roomba's Next Big Step Is Selling Maps of Your Home to the Highest Bidder

2. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14842705 (this thread)

http://gizmodo.com/roombas-next-big-step-is-selling-maps-of-...

Roomba's Next Big Step Is Selling Maps of Your Home to the Highest Bidder

3. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14842822

https://www.theverge.com/2017/7/24/16021610/irobot-roomba-ho...

Roombas have been busy mapping our homes, and now that data could be up for sale

Other sources: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-irobot-strategy-idUSKBN1A...

Roomba vacuum maker iRobot betting big on the 'smart' home

(Techmeme headline for the above: Roomba vacuum maker iRobot hopes to sell its users' floor plan data, seeking deals with Amazon, Apple, and Alphabet (I couldn't submit this Reuters source to HN).

Edit: formatting

As a blind cat burglar, this is really helpful.

On a side note, anyone know of any other appliance manufacturers selling mapping data for customer's walls. Specifically locations of room safes? Just curious.

I’m sure it will be of great interest when the company that sold me my internet connected garage door opener starts selling my open times.

I wonder if that software that does room mapping with wifi signals (with 4cm resolution last I heard) would find safes because of their density. Seems likely.

Are we safe from no one trying to sell us to companies?

I guess everything that's remotely network capable these days should be kept off the internet until it proves that it needs to - how do you ensure that it's not sending extra data back home without manually intercepting and inspecting all it's network traffic when it does connect?

"until it proves that it needs to"

The "need" is arbitrarily added to all kinds of things already. If the thing makes money collecting data, it will be required to operate.

A lot of smart devices such as Philips Hue can work completely offline, but if you want to control them remotely you need to agree to their cloud terms and conditions, which most likely includes selling your data. So from a user perspective they get added benefits, but the hidden cost is their privacy.

I have a Roomba and in no way does it have any capability to connect to any type of network, Internet or otherwise. Is this only on the high end models? I've never used the app because mine doesn't offer it, does the app require sign-in so they can know who you are?

But I mean... of all the privacy invading pieces of tech I can think of, a representation of the floorplan of my house might be the least concerning. Considering I'm typing this within range of at least a dozen potentially always-on microphones and cameras, and have no idea where my keystrokes are actually going.

All current Roomba models [1] have wifi and app support. The app requires an account because it's the type where even when you're at home on the same network as the Roomba, the app doesn't actually talk directly to the Roomba, but goes out through iRobot's servers. Not sure about other models, but on the 980 that I have, the app is necessary to use the full functionality.

[1]: http://www.irobot.com/For-the-Home/Vacuuming/Roomba.aspx#Com...

> the app doesn't actually talk directly to the Roomba, but goes out through iRobot's servers

That alone is reason enough not to buy one.

As much as I don't care for my data being sold like this, a lot of it is out there already. Public tax records contain many differnt bits of information about your house: room count, square footage, age, etc. Additionally, private companies typically track this information for entire apartment complexes including actual room layouts.

Source: work in real estate industry. Apartment floor plans are typically used to determine competitive pricing.

In my neighborhood, most of the houses were built from a fixed number of designs sourced from an architecture firm. Wouldn't the floor plans be the IP of the architect?

Good question. IANAL, but i would imagine the floor plan is public record. If, someone were to build a new building using a previous designed floor plan, I can see how that could be an issue. But that's not even whats going on here. they aren't using the ACTUAL plans that the architect drafted - they're making their own map, which is akin to taking photos of the space. Like how record companies can own a recording but not a song. Where you get it from matters.

But, not a lawyer. Curious what others make of it.

Public records might have the structural drawings of your house is recent. They probably won't have full layouts because the codes don't care. Depending on where you live and how diligent they have been about digitizing the records, though, there may not even be structural drawings on file.

Source: Annoyed when I realized my house (re)built in 2009 has no architectural drawings.

I would assume so, but iRobot will not be copying the original floor plans, so that is not relevant. iRobot will be creating their own floor plans based on their own measurements acquired from customers' Roombas.

A floorplan is just a diagram showing factual data about a house, facts can't be copyright.

If you copy the architects drawings to make the floorplan then copyright may apply, however.

If the floorplan itself had intrinsic worth as a substantial piece of creative art, then maybe, just maybe you'd have a case. But the defence of "i measured the walls in my house and drew a plan" (using a computer, for example) should be watertight.

Nonesense, obviously the money is in selling recorded conversations to the highest bidder. Identifying spending patterns via image recognition of pets and babies would be up there also.

> This smells like cheap and irresponsible journalism

Maybe, but it is still true and something most users probably won't pay attention to but probably should.

"This is all part of the larger quest for a few major companies to hoover up every bit of data about you that they can. Now, they want to know all about your living space"

Does anyone know if Neato has this in their terms?

TBH, if I could access a map of my home from Neato, and sketch problem areas I want it to remap, that would be very valuable for me. Or if I could sketch boundaries in software for it to ignore vs. using tape, that would be way better.

My home is my office, and it's constantly changing. Furniture gets moved every week, and there's always...stuff laying everywhere. I don't imagine a map of my home being very useful.

I find the "random" cleaning to give the best results though. E.g going all over the place vs mapping.

"Don't leave money of the table." "Maximise shareholder value!"

Thanks, capitalism!

Capitalism is supposed to be an equitable trade for BOTH sides of the transaction. I am also quite certain a socialist government would be happy to have this information.

That's trade, or commerce, in general. It is definitely not restricted to capitalism, which concerns who has the capital and who does the labor.

As opposed to all those capitalist governments that are trying their best to preserve the privacy of their citizens?

And good job on defending what capitalism is supposed to be, rather than what it is.

In the face of adversity, principles are worth defending. What is can be changed as long as you keep the lights on and don’t let others redefine those principles.

Because East German citizens had so much privacy.

So, when you say 'socialism', you of course don't mean all the social democracies where taxes are used for welfare (literally a small dose of 'from each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs')?

And when you say capitalism, you of course don't mean China or Russia, with their terrible human rights records, despite their economies being very capitalistic? You mean the USA, right? But all the spying and surveillance it does (along with many other countries - the UK comes to mind) doesn't matter, because East Germany was worse.

No, those aren't true capitalist countries. What you mean is some Randian utopia of Free Markets and Free People that will totally exist, as soon as you find a perfect, incorruptible government to maintain it.

Or perhaps surveillance, repression, and social policies are somewhat orthogonal.

Some would argue they had more privacy than we have today. Stasi had to put in a lot of effort and manpower to do what they did back then.

Nowadays we have replaced manpower with technology, case in point: https://apps.opendatacity.de/stasi-vs-nsa/english.html

Everybody has their personal tracking device/diary with them at all times. Now we are even starting to spread surveillance devices all around our homes like it's the most normal thing in the world to have a telescreen (1984) like device in the middle of our living rooms.

Sure it might not have the same purpose as telescreens in Oceania, but functionally they are already there and even Orwell couldn't have predicted the surveillance possibilities of massive scale smartphone adoption.

i think it's 'thanks lack of privacy awareness and lack of regulation'

Here's a question (ignoring the fact the CEO said it's opt-in): what danger does this actually pose?

Reply on news.ycombinator.com