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I went from very brutal environments (massively stressful jobs in algorithmic trading, generally sitting on loud trading floors with late hours, weekends, etc) to working remotely and found almost the opposite.

Instead of being sick several times a year- we would literally watch colds and other illnesses work their way up and down the rows, I instead got sick maybe once a year.

Solving problems in a nice quiet room with no coworker conversations around me improved my ability to concentrate and do the hard things 10x.

Social interaction is a mixed bag. My last two jobs I was surrounded by a bunch of people who hated their work, and we only really bonded over the fact that we would rather be literally anywhere else. My remote coworkers all get along great, and it would be nice to spend more face time with them, but I have an active personal social life so that helps.

I think you are missing a big piece here though- and that's activity. I take my dog on long walks and generally like to bike around town (I live in a city) but it requires much more of an active effort. Luckily I eat a lot better and much less than I used to. I don't keep junk food or really any prepared foods in the house.

YMMV.

It's almost as if a balanced life is good for you

The quality of social interaction is very important. None of the relationships you described seemed overly healthy. The study shows that it was good, warm, reciprocal relationships that factored into improved mental health. I work on a trading floor as well, and while I do enjoy it, I put in lots of work to have healthy social relationships outside of work.

These studies try to point out that things are binary, but its not of course. You have to remember what they are measuring in general, stable vs. unstable. For example, drinking is bad when it becomes destructive. Two-three bottles of red wine per week is ok, unless you do it to forget things.

You just described my life with uncanny accuracy.

I have suspected for some time that my problems were due to social isolation, but I have been too apathetic to make an effort to do anything. You've just given me the motivation to change that. Thank you!

I wish there were a Tinder for friends. It's a shame no one would use it.

At some point I thought there should be an app for lonely people to get know each other. but I am a bit afraid that being lonely is much more difficult to admit to even oneself than being single, so I started thinking that the app should not be about loneliness, but about things to do or help needed in simple things. So I guess it should be something remotely resembling twitter that is geographically filterable. so that you could "tweet" things like

"We need one more person to our game evening, anyone nearby? #Games"

"I am driving to Los Angeles. Ayone need a ride? #Rides"

"Need more potatoes for our #food. Bring some and come to eat"

Obviously you would also need to figure out a way to keep creeps civilized and a currency/counter to keep the small asshole minority just taking advantage of others help.

At the IT company I used to work at, our CTO constantly raged over people asking for technical solutions for their own management problems, which is a pattern I have internalized. Sometimes things are social issues that need to be solved socially. I don't think there is going to be a systematic way to keep creeps out and prevent the asshole minority, people are just going to have work things out as a society.

I think it is quite difficult to let complete strangers to your home without any help from technology. I don't think this app would need any rocket science, but I would guess that a simple way to verify who you are dealing with and make that public ("John Doe is joining our board game night today") and some kind of scoring system ("John Doe has wanted help x times and given help y times and on average people do not seem to think he is an asshole")

But I think the crucial point is that if you want to fight loneliness, it is difficult to do that if the lonely one is made to think that he is now getting something because he is lonely. That will instead make him feel worse. It would be much better to tell to the lonely one that hey, just you, I would need your help. (Complete amateur psychologist writing here)

Perhaps having mandatory face shots being part of the app (you can at least know what age demographic the strangers are in) as well as a blacklist (preferably hard to get on to avoid abuse). I would want to avoid a scoring system, that slips into "good person" quantification territory. For the second point I agree with your concept, but I don't have an idea for the implementation. Random matching?

Maybe some combination of real name, photo, social media accounts and trusted networking (these are the people that I have verified to being what they say they are etc.)

Scoring has its challenges, but somehow I think there should be a way to flag people that do not behave decently. Maybe just two grade scoring with wording that makes it clear that the lower grade is applicable only if the person has e.g. threatened with violence or completely disregarded what was agreed (being a bit late or politely cancelling in the last minute is not sufficient)

And for the second part, I just thought that it would be enough to get a notification on your phone that someone nearby could use some help that you can give. Not probably a perfect solution that saves every lonely soul, but if even a few, that would not be bad. And of course, maybe also some of the not so lonely ones get to receive or give some help.

Wow, you've put some good thought into this. Being able to say "I could use help taking down a tree" would be great - signing up and attending an event is one thing (meetup.com), but hard to do if you're down. But actually being needed and being able to help! THAT is powerful! Please do this. I'll help if I can.

There are a few problmes here. first one is that I have currently my hands quite full. Second is that for a successful launc, I guess a good idea is about 1%, technical MVP is another 1%, execution of everything else maybe 18% and pure dumb luck 80%. Here, even if I had time to come up with the MVP (and honestly, I am very sue that there are people reading this that would come up with the MVP in a fraction of time than it would take me), there is still the 98% left that I am really bad with.

I am open to discuss about this further, though, if there are people interested in taking a lead. (Ideally I would see this built as a open source client on top of some distributed data store and not a for-profit thing, but that probably is way too idealistic)

We are building exactly this app. And we are releasing it soon.

https://qbix.com/groups

I've been on Reddit and seen how many people are truely lonely. If this app could reach critical mass, it could have a hugely positive effect on thousands (millions?) of lives. I hope you (or someone) will do it. I'm not lonely, but I would use it too - everyone can have more friends.

It's so hard...

There is, but it's called meetup.com. You don't have to just go to tech/networking meetups, you know. :)

Second this - meetups are pretty good for a variety of topics, not all of them tech related.

I also recommend it, and cannot see anything wrong in going to tech/networking meetups, it should be anything you are interested in and won't feel out of place attending.

meetup.com is good, met a new friend there a month ago. Also invite all the local people on Facebook you are "friends" with to actually hang out.

There basically is. Meetup.com does what you are looking for.

People without any common interests are boring to spend time with. You need at least something in common.

I move all the time and every time I move to a new city I try to find a board game group and a Linux User Group.

I'm not super into Linux anymore (I used to be a Systems Administrator) but I can help new users and the people are geeky and people that I often get on with. In the past I have joined Toastmasters groups. They are good with a much more varried group of people going to them. The point is the people then connect you with other people.

The best way to meet people is not "I'm looking to meet people" – because then those events and spaces get filled with social outcasts and creepy folks.

The best way to meet people is to look for activity groups, meetups and so on. People with common interests. I'd even argue that this is actually a better way to find romantic partners, than to signal "I am looking for a romantic partner" (unless you're above-average in attractiveness).

As someone who recently moved to a new city without any network, I've found myself wishing for a similar type of app too.

In related news, if anyone reading this is in central Oregon and wants to meet up, feel free to shoot me an email :-)

A lot of people use OkCupid for that. You can put in your profile that you're looking only for friends.

An app for friendship sounds too broad. I've tried meetup.com a few times, but all the events seem to take place while I'm at work (I'm pretty much night shift), so that didn't work out. I'd suggest finding a community that interests you, and looking for a local meetup.

For example, there are tons of video game forums out there, but if you focus on one game, the pool gets smaller, but more tight. I've met a few people IRL playing Destiny, and tons more online. Maybe someone else has more suggestions!

Try https://www.me3app.co/

They ask an awful lot of personal questions that I am not comfortable with being on a server in reach of US authorities

As I commented above, I lived through this exact experience, and moving back to office work had a huge impact on my overall happiness. That and Vipassana meditation.

Since this is HN I think a lot of users would fall in this camp. I'm definitely guilty of this. I'm not great at social interactions.

I'd say that because of the kind of work that many here do, the onset isolation/neglect of friendship networks is more obvious than in other occupations. That means people here will notice the situation more quickly and be able to take sensible proportionate steps.

I work as a teacher, so in a normal week I have lots and lots of high bandwidth face to face engagement with hundreds of people. I've seen people retire from teaching and suddenly discover the relative atrophy of their non-work networks, and I'm taking steps to avoid the same experience.

You mention that this is anecdotal, anyway, but stress to yourself that it is anecdotal.

You sound depressed and you mention that social interaction might be the cause, but is it not possible that you are finding your work unfulfilling, that's causing depression and the rest follows?

I only say this because I've worked long stretches more or less alone with limited social interaction (didn't have a wife around) and didn't suffer any of those symptoms, but that's an anecdote for you. I did suffer those symptoms when depressed, though, and that didn't take solitude.

Some people are very happy with solitude and there's no hard rule that it affects everyone the same.

Yes, I would caution anyone who reads my post from drawing a 1:1 correlation with their life. That has strictly been my experience and even as such, I of course can't be 100% sure about the origins of my current situation. It's a bit of a chicken/egg situation.

Yes, right now I struggle to find fulfillment in my work. But did that develop because of solitude which induced depression or did the lack of fulfillment develop naturally and cause the depression itself? It's difficult to say for sure, even as the person experiencing it.

I can only speak to what I know of myself and my situation. I was a developer for ~3 years before I started WFH, and never felt like this. The product I worked on then, wasn't any more interesting than the current one. It's true though that the first few years of work carried with them a novelty and enjoyment that was bound to fade. But I think my happiness then was more than just that. Even off days felt successful if I was interacting with the team.

> Some people are very happy with solitude and there's no hard rule that it affects everyone the same.

Definitely agree. We're all different, and some people surely do thrive in this kind of environment. Interestingly, I would have told you I was one of those people. I'm naturally an introvert so this lifestyle was very comfortable at the outset. Too much of a good thing though...

Its not too late! Socialize more, exercise everyday, and take something for depression! Learn new things, I had a rough spell a few years ago which took its toll. Now what I find is I have to walk the razors edge everyday. Make sure I sleep enough, eat right (low carb and fasting), exercise twice a day. If I dont I start to lose the edge.

Absolutely!

I should mention that I have already covered the basics, which is why I strongly believe this is a social problem. I have:

- Seen a doctor, gotten blood tests done, and verified all is "normal"

- Eaten very healthy, home cooked meals since I started WFH.

- Exercise 4-5 times a week. I am in "good" shape, and I am looking at registering to run my first marathon soon.

- Drink lots of water. Mostly avoid alcohol.

Go to some meet ups, join a church, coach something... Good luck!

I really wish there were good community organizations that bring people together like a church, but weren't religious based. I guess that's what organizations such as the Moose lodge, or Lions club attempt to fill?

Agreed.

Religion is a non starter for me but I would like to find some community groups doing good things with good people.

I know about meetup.com etc but I'd like to have ties with something a little deeper. Preferably something without political and especially without supernatural overtones.

I see there being a big need for this in the modern world.

I find that sport fills this function for me. After being a very cerebral, non sporty child I was lucky enough to find sports I really enjoyed (badminton & tennis) in my late teens.

When I've moved from city to city I've joined a good local badminton club and played in local leagues. With that has come vigorous exercise AND social interaction. Latterly its also brought the opportunity to contribute to local community through coaching my club's juniors. I find this challenging in a very rewarding way.

Even if you are not religious, you may want to reconsider church. It can be good for people and communities in many ways, and often for reasons you don't understand.

Sometimes I feel like American culture is being sterilized. Just like white bread and a multivitamin, we only take what we understand and leave everything else behind. And then when we encounter social problems after eliminating church (or health problems when we eliminate natural foods), we are puzzled.

I see good in churches. And I see bad.

But most importantly from my perspective I see the fundamental basis being at odds with what I understand to be reality.

I'm not saying churches don't fulfill an important function, they do. But the order of things changes and even though change can bring a period of chaos we generally don't go back, we go forward.

What we know as "churches" are not growing, they are dying. For whatever reason(s) and this trend probably isn't going to reverse. So for me the solution is to move on to something with equivalent functionality but with less dysfunctionality.

Interesting point, thank you for answering.

I wonder if the "next thing" is going to come from atheists constructing such an organization from scratch, or from religious people adapting churches to fit our new understandings?

I think I see your point and it's a fair one, militant atheists are usually too busy being just that to be constructive but we aren't talking about cool electric guitars at the pulpit and admitting a few gays.

What I see being different in evolution this time is that it isn't an issue of whether God and Jesus are the same being or different beings or whether the Pope is the mouthpiece of God or the King is or Jesus or Muhammad was the last messenger. It's a whole different understanding, one that doesn't generally accept the existence of supernatural forces. So it's a foundational issue this time. I just see the non acceptance of the supernatural continuing to grow in the world and don't think it will roll back (may be wrong but don't think so, at least in my lifetime). So some important things get lost. Meh, anyway, enough about that. I don't fault anyone for being religious, I just simply can't be.

You might consider the Unitary Church, they are a non-denominational church, which means even people who don't believe in religion can join. The few that I have been to would pretty laid back groups of people who were just trying to understand life.

Maybe religion could transition slowly away from supernatural to "living with forces outside of your control". And away from heaven and hell to some notion that being good is its own reward, and good for your descendants.

Your logic is flawed associating social problems with eliminating church. There should be more socially accepted ways to congregate other than under the auspices of an ancient superstition.

And I won't even comment on your connection to health problems and natural foods (whatever those are). You mean like what prehistoric man ate? And lived to 25 years old?

My point was that sometimes something may have a positive effect even if we don't understand why or where the positive effect comes from. We can't easily reproduce the positive effects of church because we don't know what about it, exactly, is responsible for the benefits.

Similar to how a multivitamin and junk food doesn't replace a balanced diet. That's just an analogy to help illustrate my point, not a point on its own.

I think it's more likely that churches will adapt to our modern understandings than someone will build the perfect atheist social institution from first principles.

The local RPG and board games group fills that gap for me.

You may vary it depending on your tastes about leisure activities, but there's a lot of social groups you can try.

Join your local Go Club - they're always looking for new players. Mentally stimulating and in my experience Go players often work in an IT-related field. Play Go and you will find new friends worldwide.

The fact that you'd meet many people in IT would be a turnoff for me, since i prefer a diverse friend group. But YMMV.

I've never been, but I believe that's the idea behind https://www.sundayassembly.com/ .

Something like a Third Place (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place) ... And yes, this kind of environment should be encouraged more!

Thanks for sharing this. Interesting to read and introspect on.

Sports clubs fill that gap normally.

Consistent sleep is very important too.

>"Take something for depression"

What happy pills do you recommend?

No. Pills.

For real, I'm not trying to be cute. Unless you're pronounced clinically depressed by a couple doctors, one should avoid the official benzo & related "happy pills".

One thing that might help, is try to make some hippy friends. You're not expected to become one of them, but they have a lot to share, wink wink.

The problem with medication for depression is that they generally have only ever been proven to help in cases of severe depression. They don't help with mild depression, but doctors are allowed to prescribe them for anything they see fit. I believe they have been over prescribed.

There are related issues, like racing thoughts and anxiety, which are different and not all that uncommon. Lorazepam is actually pretty effective for these issues.

Don't just take pills, see a therapist.

> "eat right (low carb and fasting)"

Do you have any evidence that your recommendation is the "right" diet?

There is lots of evidence for lots of different diets being healthy, people have different dietary needs. However those things are pretty universally good ideas. Obligatory quick google links:

Fasting: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4257368/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4274578/

Low Carb: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3595318/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2989112/

In the last six months I've moved to a new apartment in another part of town, I changed jobs, and I graduated from grad school. My social life has been severely disrupted! The change in work was maybe the most dramatic since I moved from a highly social environment to being isolated in an office by myself (and on a floor with taciturn colleagues). It's only been a few months, but I already see some mild forms of the symptoms described in the parent comment.

Now, being in grad school, working full time and having a toddler did a lot of the work in atrophying my social connections over the last three years, but this spring delivered a knock-out blow. Luckily, I'm attentive to my mental health and generally a proactive person, so I've outlined steps to try and at least get into another job (Cracking the Coding Interview... groan). I've also started scouring the internet looking for ideas to start developing my community ties:

  - Our local YMCA has programs for families that we'll be taking advantage of, including free babysitting once a month(!!!)
  - There's a local collective of volunteer "civic hackers" that I'll start hanging out with after summer's over.  
  - I just saw, somewhere above in this comment thread, a mention of meetup.com. It's now open in another tab.  
  - I'm even leaving comments on the internet, such as this!

Anyway, just wanted to share (edit: formatting).

I had this exact same experience. It was detrimental to every aspect of my life. Moving back to office work was one of the best decisions that I've ever made. If not the best one.

Before I started working from home I used to consider myself an introvert, who was good with/preferred being alone. But that was always against a back-drop of living a relatively social work and home-life. Once I started working from home my tendencies towards introspection, and insulation, which were tempered by my social life, became dominant and I ended up becoming insidiously depressed without even noticing it.

Change your job/workplace man, it'll change your life.

After college, I had a NEET period of roughly 6 months. I would see friends maybe once every other week because I was somewhat depressed about not being able to find a job and had to be dragged out of the house, and the only people I spoke to regularly in person were my parents. I went to my first meetup (for programming) towards the end of that period before getting my first job, and I felt all of the stuff you described.

It was really jarring, but I knew what was going on, so I didn't freak out. I'd read about how solitary confinement affects peoples' intelligence, especially their ability to formulate speech, and I figured I had a diminished version of that which only took effect when talking to strangers. It took about a week of work and interacting with people other than my parents on a regular basis for me to feel normal again.

Do you exercise on a regular basis? I think I've learnt from Coursera's Learning How to Learn that interaction with people and exercise have similar effect to our brain cells, that both will help generate new cells (I don't know the details, but you probably get the idea).

So that's what I figure how to keep myself sane if I would enter a period of almost-to-none daily interaction with people.

The one probably can't replace the other, but I'm curious if you would still have those symptoms with regular exercise.

It's frightening how accurate this describes my situation as well. Went 3+ years working at a startup where essentially we were one giant family, everyone hung out after work, and I rarely had time to myself. Everything technical was super easy to digest, I was exercising every other day, and I was on top of my game.

Now most of my days are spent working from home, and the only human interaction are the cashiers at the grocery store. I'm tired all the time, focusing is difficult for me now, and I feel like I've become slower with anything that requires mental effort.

What's the solution here? Don't work from home? Hang out more?

Deep Work

you pay small price to get intense focus whatever that small price may be. go isolate yourself in a room or go to a library or co-working space. take a long pensive walk.

> and the only human interaction are the cashiers at the grocery store

Why is that? Even Elon Musk spends times with his kids. What's keeping you from spending time with people you care about?

I often come across similar comments and they scare me. I share a lot of similarities and I am only in my early twenties. I decided to take a gap year and take part of an exchange program abroad.

Thanks for the heads up. This is something that I've wondered about with working from home. I think I'd like 1 or 2 days per week at home and rest in the office for ideal ratio.

I've been working at home on Monday and Friday, with the other days in an open-plan office, for the last twelve years. Its a good ratio that works well for me.

Yikes. I'm just about to start a new job working from home fulltime. My wife's been expressing her concern that the lack of social interaction might be difficult for me, I guess I better heed her and join up with some sort of social group (was thinking musical theatre)

Don't worry too much, each person is different. I am WFH'ing for a good several years now, and largely enjoy it. Also, I believe, in my case pros outweigh the cons.

Lucky to have a family, which does help a great deal in this situation. But, I do sometimes worry about it, but as a result compensate for it - exercising to stay fit/lean. Also, always try to be on the cutting edge of tech - HN/similar is great for that.

Edit: Just to add two more points:

1) Social networks: One might think, that they will help in this situation. But again, its different for everyone. I find, in my case their use is detrimental. So after having disconnected from them totally (save a pseudonymous twitter a/c for news/venting), I find it more peaceful, also I found my friendship with good friends has improved. And Facebook friends withered off.

2) Another thing, I learnt a few years ago, some people need social interactions to re-energize where as for some people it is solitude. Are you the type, who if goes for a walk in the park, and when people try to hold a long conversation, do you like it? Or would you rather be left alone after greeting/short-conversations. I definitely, am the second type. (If I am portraying my personality to be totally anti-social, then that's inaccurate. As my social needs are fulfilled well, by family and friends. May be if I had less of that, then would definitely like to have long talks with strangers in the park. Each person has different situation and needs, that's the key point).

Having done musical theater as my main hobby for almost 8 years I can thoroughly recommend it for that exact purpose. There's something about singing with folks and sharing a stage that leads very quickly to strong deep social bonds. It's also a nice contrast to my tech friends I find.

By spending most of your time at home, your immune system probably dials down.

I noticed I was falling sick when I took a short break from work and was mostly home. Everything returned to normal once I resumed my normal work schedule.

You should probably check your home for toxic materials, especially if that's an old building. Short stay at home shouldn't affect your health or more so immune system.

Don't underestimate the connection between physical and mental health though.

The immune system also get weaker when big stress is suddenly gone. E.g. I usually got sick after exams or in the first days of holidays...

Maybe it's just washing itself?

Working from home messes you up in more ways than you notice. One is that you tend to eat more and the other thing is it can stress you your will power bencause ther are so many distractions. One last thing is you move walk around as much as you do, your brain needs blood flowing, oxygen. Ever heard of drowning causing brain damage? Extreme analogy but that's because of lack of oxygen, I'm sure less than optimal oxygen can't be as good

There are times i just don't like having people around me. Then i want to do stuff i really like in my own pace/peace.

Sometimes that is tending to my little garden, toying around with a Raspberry Pi, tv or gaming or whatever.

Is that the comfort you're talking about?

As long as you also have times where you go and meet friends, I don't see how this would be a problem.

Think about it. What's the WORST way you can punish someone?

Solitary Confinement.

Even in a prison with the most vile scum in the state, the worst thing you can do to a person is to remove them from the others.

That speaks volumes to me, personally.

Have you considered looking at full-spectrum lights which may have some influence on your symptoms? Did you health check include Vitamin D check?

Have you thought about getting cats?

What is your age?

Just like children's IQ and foot size are strongly correlated the answer in their and in your case can be just attributed to age (you said "I've been working from home for a number of years").

Not saying that's the solution but I'm glad you said it's an "anecdotal experience".

Except, you know, how they said that they are seeing improvements after reversing some of the isolation. Oh and the study in the article.

People see improvement even after taking placebo.

I haven't read the paper yet but on first glance it looks like an observational study. I know it's cliche but correlation does not imply causation and observations are just that, drawing conclusions after facts.

It's still an interesting study though...

I'm having the same experience. I have been working on my thesis for the last year. My university is in a different city, and everyone working on something related is in another country. This made it hard for me to make progress and this has had the effect of me isolating myself even more (I haven't made enough progress to have a beer with friends and not feel bad about myself).

Although I have never been sick for the last year, I recognize all the other symptoms to some degree. For an assessment, I took an IQ test a while ago. I used to be really good at number sequences, acing them or at least getting 95% right. I think I got about half of them this time, which was quite shocking.

Once I finish this thesis (my supervisor keeps trying to convince me to postpone my graduation - a student working on a very similar problem has spent more than 2.5 years now, and has not graduated yet) I want to spend more time on my social life again.