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Comment by bamboozled | Hacker News Reader

Exactly, this is the fallacy that we need "other people", like politicians to solve climate change for us.

Try voting with your wallet and changing your bank.

A politician representing the interests of the people who voted for him/her is a fallacy?

Then consequentially I should get back all my tax money that went into setting up international trade and other economic deals, since apparently this should also have been my responsibility and these arrangements would have just popped up if I had 'voted with my wallet'.

I never said that, but the majority of adults are responsible for this mess including the representatives they've elected. This includes you and me.

Are you a human or a corporation? Because if you are a human it should be a matter of common sense to see that it is quicker and more effective to regulate the emissions with a law instead of hoping that enough good willed people take their time and start boycotting every single company that does not care about the environment.

> I never said that

Perhaps that isn't what you meant, but it sure looks to me like that's what you said.

Relying on someone else to fix it won't fix it, is essentially what I'm saying, for if everyone had that attitude, then nothing would happen, absolutely nothing.

Politicians are just people too.

... People with far greater than average power to change society. I can't make laws. Can you?

Voting for representatives who will make laws that create the change you want to see in the world is absolutely not "relying on someone else."

Actually, I think we do.

This is a free-rider problem where imposing a cost on yourself (such as using more expensive, greener alternatives, reducing consumption, etc) make almost no difference to the overall problem. We need to ensure that the vast majority make these changes.

The (simplified) payoff matrix is something like this:

----

I am green: I win

Society is green: We all win a lot

----

I am green: I lose a lot

Society is not green: We all lose a lot

----

I am not green: I win a lot

Society is green: We all win a lot

----

I am not green: I lose, but at least I have a big car

Society is not green: We all lose a lot

----

There are two ways out of the trap:

1. Innovation makes green solutions cheaper and better, such that going green is a win for the individual and for society.

2. Governments force green solutions to be the cheaper option, using laws and taxation.

You're doing it again:

> 2. Governments force green solutions to be the cheaper option, using laws and taxation.

That's not happening, but I'm sure you've noticed. So you're better off to invest in and back the innovators with your wallet by purchasing their products and by divesting (this need to be done, actively to work), which is what I said originally.

Also there is plenty to gain from being innovative on a personal level. For example, you may perceive consuming less is a "cost" but is it really? If I consume less, I have more money (meaning I have to work less), I have less "stuff" to deal with, and I have less rubbish to throw out.

You're not giving me anything new to be honest.

Ah the fallacy that we need "other people" to solve the prisoner's dilemma. Try just not ratting out your partner in crime!

Ah the fallacy that we need "other people" to solve the tragedy of the commons. Try just not grazing your cattle too much!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_action_theory

I'll stick with common sense on this one, if you can't see that you and all other educated adults have personal responsibility and that you can influence markets based on your choices as a consumer well, that's a shame.

There can be personal action which can coincide with group and political action.

That's a straw man though, people can call for regulation just because it is effective and doesn't create enormous hassle for themselves personally (trying to find the one product that is environmentally responsible or whatever). They don't have to believe it is necessarily the only solution.

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