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Comment by d--b | Hacker News Reader

I am French and I went through the process of immigrating to both the UK and the US. While I agree that France is particularly painful about burocracy, what you describe is not a breeze elsewhere either.

You have to compare with other systems, cause I don't know of any immigrants who can say "oh coming here was so easy".

That is unless you're sent by a big company who takes care of everything.

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I can speak about Netherlands. The process is super easy and super smooth.

* I got my residence permit on 3rd day of arriving to country

* I opened bank account on 4th day

* I've opened my insurance by just going online and not talking to people at all

Dutch system is performing very well on bringing tech talent. There's this "Expat Center" that handles whole stuff. In addition to that our company (Booking.com) makes your move even smoother by assisting your relocation and by providing you temporary stay until you find your dreamy apartment.

Please be welcomed at Booking.com in Amsterdam headquarters!

* software developer: http://grnh.se/0fotp8

* front-end developer: http://grnh.se/xl658q

* product owner (e-commerce): http://grnh.se/6gfqds

* ux designer: http://grnh.se/1qhylg

This is how it should be done. Sounds like both the government and your company are doing it right and it's paying off because your are doing well recruiting talent. This is what France should do. But I do feel like there is some odd satisfaction in France both among the French and expats of having paid their dues, made it through the process and are sort of proud of it. Almost like they don;t want to make it too easy.

Do you guys still work with a predominantly Perl stack?

Yeap. But lots of other stuff is also being used nowadays, including java, python, go, etc. depending on the product.

Not sure about Booking, but at Catawiki (also NL-based) we are looking for Ruby developers willing to relocate.

Contact me via email in my profile if you are interested!

I can speak for Ireland. I am from a south asian country and the who process in Ireland has been a breeze.

Visa and permit? Easy. Just go to the office, present the documents and everything comes in post two weeks later.

Register with social welfare? great. Just go there and they set you up. You get a card and setup the account online. Everything else take care of by the employer and revenue departments.

Driving license? Take the written test and 300 euros for the lessons. If you pass, you can drive (with a driver with full license). Take the test 6 months later for full license.

Yes, here and there you do meet someone who tries to give you a hard time. but all in all, a very positive experience.

Migrating to Switzerland was a breeze. Everything was set in under a week. Founding a LTD was also easy. In France it took months to get everything solved for immigration (as a EU citizen). I am still struggling to solve those various puzzle pieces for founding a company. The kafkaesque RSI alone requires more time and effort then all the bureaucry in Switzerland together.

Can you live outside France, and commute in to work? E.g Swiss bank account, company etc.

I agree that other countries are difficult, too. France moreso I think, but not alone in all of this. Which is why I'm arguing the difficulty in working in or starting a company in France is not money, it's navigating all the administration you need to do. And you won't know all there is to do until you do it. And since the laws change periodically, not even the prefecture will always know. I had immigration lawyers get the prefecture to correct the residency card they were issuing for me because they did it under a different program. How are you to know if the administration is doing it all correctly? And how do you know what all there is to do? And it is all in French. You better learn French or bring a translator. That's what I did.

And we haven't even mentioned income tax. As a US citizen you still have tax liability for income you make in France, meaning you still pay the US a decent amount of taxes you make in France. The US is one of the only countries that does this. So you'll need to hire an accountant familiar with this to do your US taxes, and you still have to pay your French taxes.

And forming a business? Better find someone who knows what to do, and be prepared for it took take a long time, like a year. Small businesses aren't too bad, but if you want employees...that's a totally different story.

Solve the above problems I listed and then France will be attractive to foreigners. Maybe there's a business idea: help companies and people navigate French administration. It's worth a ton of headache.

Your US taxes should be close to nothing, and filling your french taxes can be done in anything from 2 minutes to a couple hours, depending on how large/complicated your savings are. The only burden there is is with the US asking you to fill in taxes when there's nothing to pay.

I agree that coming without planning to learn a bit of french might be a burden.

While France isn't the best country in the world for easily paying your taxes, it's clearly much better than the US if it's what you are afraid of.

Actually paying French income tax is pretty easy; it's paying US taxes if you are a US citizen working in France that's hard. I'm not sure Americans know that they are taxed on their income wherever they earn it. All other countries only tax your income that you earn in that country. French citizens don't pay income tax on their salary they earn in the US, but the reverse is not true. Not only do Americans have to pay French income tax, they have to pay US income tax, even if they earn all their salary in France and stayed in France the entire year. And it gets complicated how to calculate, which is why I pay HR Block $700 to do it for me.

This isn't France's fault. It's the US's.

You're right about the US being one of the few countries in the world that still tax citizens and permanent residents no matter where they are in the world. You are also correct you should get some tax accounting advice to file your US taxes[]. Having said that, the US provides two mechanisms to offset US taxes when you are living abroad:
1) For single income earners, the first ~$100K is exempt or "non-reportable", known as the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion[1].
2) US tax treaties with other countries help to offset. Thus, if a US citizen/resident pays a lot of taxes in another country that would exceed or equal their amount in the US, provided the country has a reciprocal tax treaty, the person should not need to pay additional tax to the IRS[2].

Note that while this applies to US permanent residents too, there are immigration consequences if one lives abroad without the appropriate paperwork/authorization.[]

[*] Disclaimer: I'm neither a lawyer nor an accountant. Please consult at least the latter for your taxes.

[1] https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/figu...

[2] https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/tax-...

> 1) For single income earners, the first ~$100K is exempt or "non-reportable", known as the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion[1].

This is great, until you want to start a business or something similar. Then you enter the 9 circles of IRS hell.

I'm a bit annoyed about this. European forms always ask about the US, even if there's no reason to suspect I've ever been a US citizen - I assume this is purely because America has the pull?

They ask because it is more work to deal with US citizens. Your parents could have been visiting the US when you were born.

I mean if Chine suddenly wanted to tax its citizens worldwide, would every European country change its forms to accommodate?

China

It is true that US citizens must file their yearly US tax return, no matter where they live. That is different from the majority of other countries that do not require this from their citizens living abroad.

In practice, double taxation - which your comment seem to imply - is not really an issue. A lot of countries - including France - have mutual agreements with the US that exempt foreign income (up to a certain amount) from being taxed twice.

"up to a certain amount" and if you are using this visa you've got a good chance of exceeding that amount. I do.

Under many circumstances, you can also receive a credit for taxes paid to another country, which ensures you pay max(local tax, US tax). I can't imagine French taxes are lower than the US, so...you end up paying nothing.

Ah I see, I forgot about those US taxes, it's indeed very inconvenient...

Russia->Norway. One visit to police station on arrival, everything else is done for you (by the state, not by the company!)

Wow, really, like single window immigration? Cool

Moving to the US was easier than navigating the French administration as a French citizen.

I was able to open a bank account on day 2, without an ID. Obtaining the ID required a trip to the DMV, which while time-consuming, wasn't an especially complex endeavour.

Only issue I ran into was the government shutdown, and that affected everyone.

I don't know how you did it. Every bank I went to asked me for 2 official ID documents (which I didn't have).

Getting a social security number was not particularly hard

Having no credit history was a pain in the ass.

DMV was annoying.

That my wife could not work on my visa was a problem.

The green card process was long and painful. Showing your genitals to a doctor to get a residency card was an unexpected and unpleasant part of the process.

I believe opening a bank account has different requirements in different states. In NYC I only had to show my French passport, work visa, and full-time local work contract. The process seemed designed to allow even unlawful immigrants to get access to banking. In particular I believe the IVR had different decision trees in English and Spanish. Interesting.

edit: I agree having no credit history was a major PITA.

don't forget the mandatory tuberculosis culture test under your skin if you are from a 1st world country that uses vaccines.

Did they cup them?

I have never heard of anyone ever getting a driver's license in 2 days.

unless your bank accepted the matrix printer temporary one that doesn't even have a b&w photo.

As a French who migrated off, going to the UK was so easy.

I can't begin to imagine the burden a non speaking French person would have to go through to migrate to France.

I did it in 2013, with a C&T visa and a very weak grasp of the language. It took about 40 hours (mostly standing in various lines) to get my residence card. Some bureaucrats fucked with me because they could, and some were helpful but still followed their own version of the rules. For example, one day photocopies of bills were acceptable for proof of address (but something else was not acceptable) and the very next day, only the original bill would be accepted.

My daughter is fluent in French and she went with me to the prefecture once. She told me that the woman behind the glass was super rude, even though she put on a smile and pretended to be helpful. In fact, the next time I made it through the line there and explained what documents I had and why, the guy went to that woman's counter and chewed her out for being malicious (she had written a partial list of required docs instead of handing me the official complete-ish pre-printed list), and apologized to me for her behavior. Then he rejected my paperwork for a reason that was not documented anywhere.

Catch-22s are everywhere; you can't open a bank account without proof of address, but you can't rent a place without a local bank account. It's the same for just about everything important. We had some French friends who cosigned for our apartment so we could get past that, and we were VERY fortunate to have friends who were willing to do that for us. A few people told me that everyone knows someone who can make fake paperwork; you just can't follow all the rules. C'est impossible!

However, I would say that living in France was a fantastic experience, and I wish I had done it 10 years earlier.

For the proof of residence, an option nowadays is to book a place long term on airbnb, say 6 months or more, and then put the utilities in your name. Even just one utility may be enough, like water or electricity, maybe even internet too. Then you can use the utility bill as proof of address without needing to sign a formal rental agreement. Note that most governmental places will not accept an AirBnB receipt as proof of address, but a bank might. Keep bills of everything. Always have copies of everything on hand (passports, work contract, birth certificates, visas, bills) and keep electronic copies that you can print off any time.

don't do airbnb.

for longer than 30 days there are hundreds of real state places that find much better place for half the airbnb price. absolutely everyone will speak fluent English (differently from airbnb).

only downside is a deposit like any other rent

The big advantage is avoiding the catch 22 the above poster experienced. With AirBnB you can get a place without having a French bank account, which requires a French address. And you can book a place in the future before you arrive in France which is important for some visas that require you have housing established before you go.

thats exactly what a rental agency will do for you, but for a fraction of the cost.

they only require one or two month deposit, and any document from your previous/home country.

Note that immigration inside the EU is way easier than with other countries.

You don't need a visa, working permit, special bank account (for US citizens, since the bank must report income, etc, to the US gov), your driving license is valid, etc.

Not really.

You change languages, currency, you need new bank accounts, new health insurance, completely different educational system. All administrations are different. The culture is also a shock. You will never find any of the grocery or shop you used to buy.

A French going to the UK is not much different than a Mexican going to the USA.

The only advantage is that you don't risk being deported by the police if they don't like you papers. You are effectively allowed to be there by the virtue of being European.

What's it with the bank accounts? You can transfer money within the EU without any problems. I pay my rent in Spain from a German bank account. Though, getting wired internet is another thing, these companies seem to ignore European law.

That's a huge advantage tho, especially if you don't already have a job offer at hand. In fact if you're not in a well paid/in-demand profession like software dev it is almost impossible to immigrate legally from outside the EU.

Not true for France. It might be easier for an EU citizen, but it is still a big waste of time. Getting a bank account still takes at least 3 visits. To hold a working card in your hand will take more then a month. Your driving licence is valid only for a year. And the Social Security nightmare is pretty much the same for everybody. And for the etc. prepare for that every bit will be a hassle.

I think that the parent comment meant that you can easily use a bank account from another EU country in France.

Opening a French bank account isn't complicated either if it is with a multinational bank, I have never been inside a French branch of mine.

And the parent is mistaking, he's probably American.

You cannot use a bank accounts well across EU country. Banks are a very localized service, they provide specific account number formats and payment methods by country. It will be a huge hassle day to day when you want a SEPA transfer and the guy expects a RIB or a sort code.

It's worse with UK and Switzerland because they have a different currency. You really need a local bank account or you get bankrupted by the fees and the exchange rate. Incidentally they are the only places where there are the big tech and finance companies to work for.

Most banks are national. There are very few banks that have an international presence, with decent service at the offices.

The last time I went to a French bank in a different region than where I opened the account, they told me they can't do anything and I have to go to my "home" agency.

I have UK and French accounts with the same bank. Both work fine for making payments in other EU countries. I can transfer money between them whenever I want (or spot a better exchange rate).

Using an Austrian bank account in Germany was basically indesitnguishsble from using a German bank account. Nevertheless opening a German bank account was trivial.

And all bank transfers within the EU (not sure if the U.K. is a special case) are free of charge, and IBAN/BIC used everywhere. I routinely transfer money between my Austrian and German accounts.

And immigration to the EU for someone not coming from developed countries is waaaaaaay harder than for someone coming from the US & co.

Heh, I work with a couple of Frenchmen (in NZ) and they always get a good chuckle when they hear Kiwis complain about UK bureaucracy :)

I moved to the UK (from Ireland). It was relatively painless. No visas, no registration as a foreign worker, just show up and tell the JobCenter you need a National Insurance Number (which took almost a month from the first phone call to getting a cancallation, to getting the number in the post).

Getting a bank account was tricky though, most banks wanted a proof of address on a utility bill, but I couldn't sign up to sky/etc without a bank account. In the end, HSBC gave me an account with my passport as proof of who I said I was. Other than that, it was as difficult as moving city. Obviously not everyone has it this easy.

> I moved to the UK (from Ireland). It was relatively painless.

That's because both are EU countries (for now at least). Moving to France will also be much easier if you're an EU citizen, you won't have to deal with residence permits and your driver's license will also be valid.

You don't have to deal with residence permits but you will have to get a residence card, because without you will have lots of problems. Your driving licence is valid for one year, after that you have to convert your licence. Depending on what classes you have this will require medical tests and additional examinations.

Your NIN is proof of address, if you can get it first.

A company can give you a letter to confirm that you work for them, that's also usable as a proof of address.

It took me a month to get my NIN, which would have meant I wouldn't have been paid, and would have been unable to pay rent. (First job out of University).

None of the banks I spoke to (TSB, Santander, nationwide, RBS) would accept a letter from my employer

Echo that. Have moved more than once and all bureaucracies suck and cannot be dismantled overnight. A simple how to guide would make a big difference.

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