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Comment by downandout | Hacker News Reader

I'm not sure what McClure actually did, but in the current hypersensitive, politically correct environment, simply asking a woman out that you happen to meet while both of you are involved with a startup seems to be considered "harassment" worthy of destroying careers and businesses. Some of the stories that have surfaced recently clearly step over the line, but many others are vague and lack any clear intent on the part of the accused to make the woman uncomfortable, let alone harass or assault them.

Intent matters. Men who use positions of power to intimidate women into doing things they don't want to do should absolutely be punished. Men who happen to be attracted to women that they work with/around who decide to politely ask them out shouldn't be.

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The problem is that men who happen to be attracted to women that they work with/around sometimes end up using positions of power to intimidate women into doing things they don't want to do, simply by deciding to politely ask them out.

Yes, intent matters, and we should take it into account when morally judging someone; but if you are in the position to severely damage someone's career, you have to realize that any simple request can put them under a lot of pressure. Even if they don't want to comply, they might feel obligated to do so, unless you somehow manage to make very clear that there won't be any repercussions whichever way they decide.

If you are in a position of power and start feeling attracted to a report, you should keep it to yourself. If you really can't bear to stay silent, you should quit your job, or at least move to a different department. When they can no longer feel threatened by you, then you can try to make your advance. Everything else might devolve into harassment without any intent to do so.

> Even if they don't want to comply, they might feel obligated to do so, unless you somehow manage to make very clear that there won't be any repercussions whichever way they decide.

Even if you "make very clear there won't be any repercussions" it's wrong. Why the hell should the other person trust that you'll be able to keep your feelings separate from your professional judgment when you've had the bad sense to make things awkward in the first place? It's pissing in the pool. It's antisocial and unnecessary.

Yes, you can never be sure that you have successfully made yourself clear unless the other person explicitly acknowledges it. (E.g. by saying "I feel like you are trying to tell me something, but don't think it's quite appropriate. Go right ahead, I think I can handle whatever it is.")

Needless to say, getting to that point would be very difficult without accidentally putting them under pressure, which is what you should avoid in the first place. Better to not even try.

Good points. While less common, it's probably important to highlight that this applies to all gender combinations and orientations. If you're in a position of power over someone, it's not ok to express or act on interest.

I was careful not to use any gendered expressions after the first paragraph, which I collaged from downandout's comment. It was probably too subtle, so thank you for making it explicit.

It's the position of power, regardless of intent, that's the problem. It's lonely to be the boss. Don't hit on women you meet in that capacity.

Melinda Gates worked at Microsoft when she met Bill. Should he be publicly tarred and feathered like this? By your logic, he abused his authority and he should not have dated or married his wife because he held power over her - he could have immediately fired her if she had rejected his advances.

So where do we draw the line, and why isn't Bill on the firing line in the same way these others are?

That was still a risky move. The key (literally, one of the elements of sexual harassment) is whether the advance is welcome. I'm guessing that Bill used a lower-risk way of finding that out than sending a text message after a job interview.

You are right, the line is whether the other party welcomed the advance. A lot of very smart people are not socially mature enough to even guess what will happen. Something worked once so they repeat it, over and over again.

Companies should prohibit all internal fraternizing and fire anyone who is caught breaking the rules.

VCs and anyone involved in hiring should have even stricter guidelines. If you are an investor, relationships with anyone who owns another company should be off limits. If you are involved in the hiring process in any way, once the company you work for is disclosed, any potential relationships with that party should be off limits.

Tech has been singled out due to the current news cycle narrative. Many other industries are extremely hostile; expect to see plenty more stories in the future. The biases may not all be gender, but could be things such as seniority, ethnicity. Nepotism and general corruption is rampant in other areas. This is not a US problem, this is a global.

>Companies should prohibit all internal fraternizing and fire anyone who is caught breaking the rules.

If you did that, you would have a difficult time hiring people. There are reasons that most large tech companies don't place an outright ban on it. People don't like being told what to do, and people that spend lots of time working with one another sometimes fall for each other. Tech employees aren't (yet) robots.

I for one don't know any details about what happened between Bill and Melinda. Do you? Maybe they slowly became friends over time and just got closer and closer after they adjust had developed a trusting, non-sexual relationship. If we however would learn that Bill made some remark about feeling sexualy attracted to her the first day they meet then that's a different story and we should be appalled. But we don't know. It certainly is a delicate problem.

There is a reason Captain Picard never plays poker with the rest of the crew.

> There is a reason Captain Picard never plays poker with the rest of the crew.

That's more likely because Captain Picard shares a romantic relationship with Dr. Crusher [1] -- despite him being Dr. Crusher's boss, and Picard's involvement on the death of her husband.

Life is complicated.

ps: to their defense, this happened over many years, so very different than Dave McClure's situation.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beverly_Crusher#Family

Well, one simple heuristic is to wait for the party NOT in power to initiate the relationship.

If this entrepreneur who got hit on had propositioned McClure instead, I don't think people would have minded that.

That's still a questionable situation. If a subordinate asks out a superior, how does the superior know if they're actually interested, or are just hoping for preferential treatment? And even beyond that, peers of the subordinate, once they find out about the relationship (and of course, they will find out), may be uncomfortable with a peer of theirs having the ability -- whether real or perceived -- to bend the boss' ear to that degree.

Yes, it would be questionable, but not in the same sense as the situations being discussed here.

In general, workplace romance (even among 'equals') is fraught with these complications.

Many people drive drunk and don't run anyone over. That doesn't mean driving drunk should be socially accepted.

> Intent matters. Men who use positions of power to intimidate women into doing things they don't want to do should absolutely be punished. Men who happen to be attracted to women that they work with/around who decide to politely ask them out shouldn't be.

I agree with your statement that intent matters. But also what matters is your sensibility in propositioning others for more personal purposes. Any person in a position of power has to realize this and learn how to communicate more clearly. So its both intent and appropriate action. Men/Women attracted to people they work with should realize that propositioning women at work is NOT the same as doing the same in a bar, and MUST tailor their approaches accordingly.

I think there was some research that said that 30% of people meet their spouses/ better half at the workplace. So lots of people do ask out coworkers, but most seem to know how to do it better.

"both involved in a startup" ... nope. she was applying for a job.

If you read only what he said and nothing else, that would still be obvious. ("i don't know whether to hire you or hit on you"). So perhaps you didn't read even that much of the topic we are discussing?

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