Hacker News Reader

Comment by subru | Hacker News Reader

I will be 40 next year. Humans are expendable; we have to make our own worth. If we don't do that, we end up like I am right now: a year from 40, homeless, broke, in a lot of debt, out of work, failed startup, facing a felony on false accusation.

Life is challenging for me now, and this article directly applies to me. Oh, and there's that thing about being a white male and suicide. Now imagine being a kind of intimidating looking type in a very non white anti trump area.

Tribalism is real. Had I stuck with my tribe early on I'd be more secure. My demise is probable at this time.

I am solid in my desire to self terminate yet lack the ability to overcome fear of death. I stay alive but it's closer than ever. It's almost a humane thing to let me go. I wouldn't wish my brain on anyone.

Good luck all.

View on HN

You are not alone in this. Help is available 24x7 at https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/

Tech is hard; startups are harder; legal problems are even harder. But these things change, and the feelings can change too. You can PM me if you want to chat.

Thanks for your offer.

This is a great way to get involuntarily committed and be treated like an animal.

I hear your pain. But this too shall pass.

At 50 I was screwed out of a company that I spent 10 years building by a greedy partner. He later sued me in federal court for telling other people what he did to me. Even though all the charges were totally made up it cost me 40 thousand to defend my self (money I did not have). I finally managed to get him to drop the suite and pay all my bills by giving him a patent he wanted. And this was all before a judge ever even looked at the case.

So hang in there, find joys in the small things like life until it passes. I am a better man for having gone through all of this, but I would not wish it on anyone.

That really sucks. Glad you made it through.

Our life circumstances are nothing alike but I think we're in similar boats. Only reason I haven't CTB yet is that it would hurt my husband too much, I don't think anyone else would care. Something in my brain is very, very ill-suited to its environment, nobody knows how to fix it, and everyone keeps telling me all I have to do is commit to $PET_TREATMENT and it'll get fixed. Since it seems like my ticket has been, if we're being honest, labelled WONTFIX, it seems a bit futile to hope for a patch.

I think a large part of it might be modern individualism and globalism. You are right, for better or worse tribalism is real. They say about half of happiness is genetic (I guess we just lost the lotto here) but strong community bonds are known to be a major component of "environmental" happiness. I left my "tribe" too, probably very common nowadays when all the good jobs are in a few cities. It's at the point now where I've moved around so much I don't really know if I can say I have a tribe or if I ever did. I'm trying to fix that now, to integrate myself into a strong community, but it's very hard. Would not bother if not for husband, I'd rather just lay down and sleep forever. It all just feels like a lot of work for not much payoff.

I dunno what else to say, I guess you have to pick a path and go with it. If you still fear death it's probably a sign you're not quite ready so I guess you may as well double down and keep trying. It's not like it really matters if it burns you out to the point of no return, if your other option was to kill yourself anyway.

I sympathize.

I'm 27 and have half the problems you have. I'm not homeless yet, and I'm not facing a felony charge, though the former is just a matter of time.

I do wish I could eliminate what I know that depresses me too much to maintain hope. But the hand I've been dealt will yield constant decline, and it's already begun. It's likely that my circumstances will continue to fail, and I sadly am just intelligent enough to see the compounding variables and not disciplined enough to push through and stay afloat much longer.

Our preferences and inclinations are shaped by our limitations.

It's not that you can't rent yourself and survive. Give in to the circumstances and scrape each day on scraps until incarceration or sedation from monotony. It's that what you are underneath won't bend to fit that mold without breaking.

Am I anywhere near the mark? That's what it feels like for me, but perhaps it's far wide for you. I'm sorry for your pain. You've made it this far, and that warrants respect so I will give it. I too fear death, because I've seen it myself. Not in a hospital, and not in a battlefield. I was the leaf of a dying branch, and now I just float until I decay. I hope I make it as long as you.

Have you talked with others about this, or asked for help? Moments like this is when we as people need the most help, as they are extremely challenging situations. Please talk with friends and professionals about this.

Yes, already did. Thanks.

I don't know you nor the specifics of your situation. However, I can tell you that I did saw bright people with good education going into depression and thinking about suicide, and I saw others, that were genuinely fine despite circumstances that could be better.

Our brain tricks us, and makes sometimes living very hard. I'm just telling you this, because knowing the fact that we are just feeling what our brain (=we, as sentient being) is creating as emotion might help.

Why don't you give yourself another go by trying to live another life somewhere else, doing something else? If you don't want to continue your life as it is right now, then you will get exactly what you want.

Good advice, however I've already done that: people are the same, and I am the same person. Therefore not interested.

Yeah, I gave a good advice! People don't say that often.

Anyway, I get what you mean.

Of course, if you are pretty, people seemingly everywhere will react in certain ways to it. If you are abrasive, likewise, you will get according reactions.

That is often not fair, and on top of it, often we misspresent our feelings, and/or are missinterpreted. I don't particularly like the way humans are social. Nevertheless, recognizing the quirks is important, even though one might despise them. It's sounds a bit antisocial-personality-disorderly, but it is not.

Do you have an idea where stuff fails and goes downward?

I know for myself — as I did experience on my own — that some experiences can change you, and thus change others reaction to you.

Why don't you try to go where peoples social behaviour is fundamentally different? It might sound super weird now, but I went to a BDSM community, and it gave me air to breath. I met there some of the most decent and pleasure-to-deal-with people. I'm not recommending that to you, but it might give inspiration. I don't know your surroundings, but I bet that there are places where the social norm is vastly different, and that might help.

This is great advice I think. We are not necessarily suited to the social norms in play around us. Also, reminds me of fight club

Not trying to be rude here, but more a friendly tip: "Consider a change of scenery / location / lifestyle" is poor advice for depression, especially when suicide is being contemplated.

Other commonly-repeated bad advice includes:

* Try exercising.

* Go hiking -- when you're one with nature, life's troubles with seem insignificant.

* Force yourself out of bed and go take on the world! (aka "chin up, buster!")

There's just one good and true advice: Please seek help.

This is a rather absolute statement:

"There's just one good and true advice"

People are different. Some of the advice which you say is bad, is actually wonderful for some people.

Not wonderful against suicidal ideation.

> There's just one good and true advice: Please seek help.

It doesn't sound like good advice if you're depressed, it sounds like an anxiety inducing platitude.

I agree.

Just like everything else in the list of bad advice, it's something that most depressed people have already considered or tried, and either are unable to try it (for financial or other reasons) or tried it and it didn't work. People who have never been through that wringer seem to be under the impression that depressed people just need to get on some medication and go to therapy for a little bit and they'll be fixed. Would be great if true, and it is for some people, but definitely not for all people. Even if there is some unique combination that would work for any individual "hopeless case" (which is doubtful), there are just so many different medications and therapies to try, and most of them need to be tried for a few months before you're allowed to say that no, it really isn't working. And then you are supposed to keep your chin up and move onto the next one, and the next one. It gets very exhausting and demoralizing for someone who is already chronically exhausted and demoralized.

It's an especially evil piece of advice when offered to friends and family. Many depressed people lack the physical energy and willpower to put themselves through the psychiatric system, again and again, without any support. If I believed in hell I think there would be a special place in it for people who tell their loved ones to "seek help" when those loved ones are currently, by telling them, trying to seek help.

Honestly sometimes it gets to the point that I don't even want to spend time around other people unless they are equally chronically depressed, because you can't have an honest conversation with people who aren't. They either go into pollyanna mode or tough love mode and neither come from a place of actual connection and understanding. I think it's too scary for them to try to understand so they don't really try, and we get a multitude of platitudes that don't do anything except maybe make the giver feel better about themselves for doing a "good deed". If you explain why the platitudes don't help they usually just get mad. I think suicidal people spend more time doing emotional labor for non-suicidal people than the other way around. And then they call us selfish for leaving when we've finally had enough.

I disagree (and have been severely depressed in the past). In many cases, depression is in fact your brain telling you that something is wrong in your life and you need to change it. [0]

[0] https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/theory-knowledge/201603...

Sorry to hear about your situation. Here I offer you an mp3 recording of a radio show recording you may find valuable: http://digital-magic.tv/digitalplanet/thepositivemind/mp3/tp...

Show: The Positive Mind Host: Armand DiMele Title: Shame and Suicide Description: Armand discusses the correlation between suicide and shame. Also, how people deal with feeling inadequate and lonely. Topics: shame vs. embarrassment, accountability and judgement, social phobia, cultural differences and expectations

These thoughts are also influencing my life for the past 20 years.I have done the following:

-understand myself better.see book "please understand me II", David Keirsey.check a copy on gen.lib.rus.ec

-improve my perception processes."Conceptual Blockbusting: A Guide to Better Ideas", James L. Adams.you can check a copy for any book on prev website

-start to observe and enjoy the details in even the most "mundane" things(like a rock) around me.the "diskworld" series,terry pratchet

-any time i feel like going i begin starving&dehydration myself.in 1 month you go.see "the great starvation experiment",todd tucker

Cheer up. I am 48 and let me share one secret with you: It will get better as long as you do not give it up!

i suspect that making the correct choices is necessary to assure this

So how many decades were you depressed for, what got better for you, and what makes you so sure that this thing A. gets better for everyone and B. will fix their depression? Objectively, for some people, it does not ever get better. If you are being honest, then you surely know it's possible for life circumstances to get worse and worse over time until that person eventually dies. For others it will go up and down and up and down, and for others it will be pretty "meh" in perpetuity. "It gets better" has to be one of my most hated platitudes. I am glad "it got better" for you but it would be polite not to rub it around in people's faces.

Not to mention, much of a person's happiness is supposedly determined genetically. To me it seems very cruel to give people false hope and then tell them it's their own fault when it doesn't pan out the way they were promised (which seems to be the usual way of things). I've been hanging out here for 15 years for my suicidality to get better and I haven't been passive in my waiting. I've tried a wide variety of things and some help for a little while but none really stick. For how many decades must I continue to hang around before the "it gets better" types can be honest enough to admit that sometimes it doesn't?

Have you tried freelancing? Not sure what it is you did before but could be worth a shot? I'm making now more than I ever had being employed and don't have to answer to anyone but myself.

Do you have any specific tips on how to get started getting work?

Also, are you over 40?

I'm 31. I couldn't find any work so I went out freelancing. I am a UX UI designer and started on Upwork. It's not a good long term solution in terms of projects but I believe it's a great place to start. What worked for me was not to compete on price. I priced myself above most freelancers and it seemed to work. Now more and more of my business is coming from referrals but I still get good projects from Upwork. I turn down about 90% of requests on there. It starts off a bit slow but snowball quickly. I say all of this without knowing your industry but I'm sure the same principles can be applied to any type of work, may just need to look for other avenues of initial leads.

I'm trying on Upwork but I find that it's hard to get the first few jobs. Did you build up a strong portfolio to get the first few jobs?

I'm over 40 and have been doing contract/freelance work for 15 years. The very simple but unglamorous advice on getting started that you never see is to get a few initial gigs through agencies. You'll give up some of your rate but you don't have to worry about sales or getting paid on time. Then just deliver and be a pro. Before you know it you'll have a network in your area that you can start relying on.

Yes, lifetime technologist. Burned.

I wish the best for you, please pm me to talk about anything.

https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/

Don't give up buddy, there's infinite number of corners in this Earth to start fresh, and countless number of people who'd genuinely care about you, just as you are.

Thanks. Don't want to, though.

Poverty is a great motivator.

I've been broke many times and I assure you it is not universally a great motivator.

I strongly disagree. It will crush nine out of ten with it's weight, and that last happy one will build a catapult with that weight to fling himself into a bright future. But that is not worth ruining the nine others.

Poverty makes you worry. You ask yourself questions like how you will pay the rent next month, how to buy affordable food, how to deal with social deprivation because of lack of money. That worrying paralyzes, and destroys so much potential.

University of Kentucky did a load of research on exactly this (wish I had the link). They have measured data and science to back what you're saying here. Truth.

Oh, nice to see personal experience being backed up by scientific research. Do you have a reference to that research?

Yep. If one types "u of k poverty research" into Google it will lead to ukcpr.org.

This is the University of Kentucky Center for Poverty Research.

There are literally 1000s of hours of research and writing to match.

University of Washington (in my backyard) also has a poverty research center.

A central take away, if you don't feel like reading is that poverty makes everything else in life at least 2x harder. It's like compounding interest on debt.

That research is one reason I support universal basic income.

Mh, I also support universal basic income. I think it would make our society hugely better for nearly everybody, except for maybe the very rich. I can only dream of all the stuff that we would have if people didn't need to worry so much.

On the other hand, worrying and doubting makes one submissive, and there are people who profit from having others working for them. So, I expect strong opposition to universal basic income.

[Deleted] - upon re-reading the parent, I feel I've misjudged the volatility of the situation. Sorry.

These are the wrong ideas to express to one who indicates an interest in self-termination.

I wish I could double down vote you.

We know too little about this person's circumstances to pass judgement in this way. Not to mention that the armchair "tough love" approach to suicidal ideation doesn't work very well, if at all.

I re-read his message, I'll delete my comment and hope someone tracks the person down and calls the necessary emergency service.

Why? I'm not asking for help and I'm in no imminent danger to myself or others. I've made no plan nor have I announced any plan.

I've been like this for the majority of my life and my circumstances have deteriorated significantly over the past 18 months. I don't want "emergency services". That's part of the problem; people are afraid to speak up due to not only the stigma but also the risk of having someone misinterpret the situation and presume there's some acute risk, when there isn't.. which only complicates the situation.

I'm homeless and broke, on top of a shit ton of other problems. I've been suicidal for most of my life. My career prospects are bleak. What exactly do you believe your efforts, while well intentioned, will achieve? I assure you that you'd not only complicate my situation further, you'd probably make it worse.

My point was that statistically it's becoming more likely that, at some point in the future, I will be at risk for completing suicide. Wanting help and wanting to be dead don't have cross over or gray areas in some cases. Please don't invade my privacy. I've had enough of that already.

Congrats: one of the most repugnant comments I've seen on HN in nearly a decade.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com