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Comment by hackits | Hacker News Reader

No one has mentioned that sometimes older people don't fit into the culture of the business.

I'd like this explained in FULL COLOR if you please. What does this mean? "the culture of the business" Because from my vantage point (and I think from the vantage point of women, people of color, people over 40, and people with pink reptiles for pets at home) culture-fit is the way we do sexism, racism, ageism, whateverism, and anti-pink-pet-ism these days. But I'd love to hear a truly legit explanation for it from someone here. Anyone?

Businesses have three major phases they go through. They're adolescence, teenager, and maturity. Adolescence is the phase where the business is formed, and there isn't any formal procedural manual written or processes within the business, but they've either achieve funding and backing from a niche market. Mostly this is where businesses either promote the importance of keeping everyone together to achieve a `collective` dream to improve the world. In this phase all hands are on-deck to get to the goal, and generally during this phase the business owners have no idea what they're doing and typically will either over-sell a service or promise the moon and the pay is all over the place.

During the teenager years, (if) the business is still profitable and hasn't bankrupt itself the business owner start noticing the need for formal operation procedure manuals. They've either felt the pain of the lose of key developer and or customer and they to secure their position within the market place. Typically this is where in one form or another organisation charts come into existence and more formal documentation and processes start. Either in this time/frame you have HR/Sales/Support starting to take form.

During the maturity years, most of the teenager years of formalizing and documentation of procedures manual is in full swing. You have well defined organisation charts with formal processes to follow and legal department to sign off on new contracts. You have the existence of Managers of each department to coordinate the necessary sales goals, and marketing goal for the business.

In each of the three different phase you have cultural shifts. From young and dream focused. Then the shift during teenage years of reigning in the younger attitudes and formal processes. Then finally to the maturing phase where for better or worse a more mechanical and empirical processes of doing business.

So, you are saying that at each phase, the company should hire employees that are tweens, teens, and then young adults in correlation to the phase the company is in at a given moment? It's like this imaginary business is all done on MILF Island with the book crew from Lord of the Flies. So, by that logic, if I had a rock band at age 15 and Katheryn Bigelow said she wanted to play bass in it, I'd say no? Because she isn't in my collective-teen-fever-dream? And also, because although she is an incredible film maker with tons and tons of expertise in a technical discipline and tons of insight in business and tons of artistic gravitas you could learn from and riff of and maybe grow from, and the maturity to know that you might have some things she could learn from too, in fact- she isn't a super duper experienced professional bass player. YET. YET. YET. Did I mention that she has become a decent bass player in just a very short period of time and can prove it? Doesn't matter right? But what are you? Sheesh, maybe she could be all of these things and more?! Maybe she will be your company's greatest asset. Perhaps you could do with some diversity and modularity in this imaginary acme-company-kit so you could get injected with a "view of paradise" as Willy Wonka would say. Want to change the world? Well, as he would say, there's nothing to it. But, first you'd have to imagine that things don't snap together in a grid. Perhaps if you hire some over 40 people they might share a bit about the benefits of embracing chaos and improvisation into your business -- well, I guess the kids call it "agile" these days. But there is not agile like the agile of chaos and diversity. Shake it up a bit. You might find that it helps you move a bit faster that your competitors who are following these scripts. Well, this is what many of us over 40 people think when we interview for a job in tech after having achieved some great things in our carers and are pretty great at the things the job asks for too, but then are passed over for a 20 something with no experience who is less skilled as well. Culture fit. GOT IT. Anyone Else?

and using your model/analogy, everyone at the company must "be on the same culture page" with company at every stage? In the life model with which this is supposed to correlate for illustrative purposes, teens and tweens have parents and other facilitators, role models, coaches and guides on their team is all I'm saying. Adults have friends, maybe kids, maybe nieces and grand kids and friends of all ages, one hopes. Here are some big tech innovators whose later business derived benefit from their own mixed age/ability education in Montessori School. Just saying. http://www.businessinsider.com/tech-innovators-who-went-to-m...

How is the need of procedures and formality "culture"? It's just a company priority. And how's it even related to the candidate "culture fit"? What makes a 50-years old unable to work in a startup?

I get it. Thanks.

There is an extent to which culture fit is an appropriate discriminator, but writing people off based on their age is taking it too far.

Really sit down and ask yourself do you really want to be in your 40's around 20 year old's who have completely different ethical, moral, and work ethic than you do? Personally I would rather find/work for a business that have similar cultural values as myself than find a business that have completely differing values. Being at a start-up when you're young, healthy and want to go out with your colleges and get hammer after work is fantastic. Though when you're in your 40's I can see nothing better than finishing work at 5pm, going for a 1 hour jogging with my partner and curling up in bed at 10pm to read a book.

Do I think I will fit into a young crowed who have absolutely no social circles outside of work in their 20's now? The answer is no. Do I get approached by startup's to start some new fancy facebook clone every 2-3 weeks? The answer is 'yes' but I decline their offer's.

> 40's around 20 year old's who have completely different ethical, moral, and work ethic than you do

Care to provide examples? Also I've never heard of engineers being interviewed on ethic principles.

This would be your choice to make, and it seems you get to make it. Great! But the point is: so many do not because employers make it for them by discriminating against them based on their age.

I cannot speak for a employers, but I would say they've found a better person for the position. Either it be by age, sex, religion, health, ect... They're in the Business to make money and they've chosen somebody who is younger, more eager for the position than you. Accept it and move on.

> Either it be by age, sex, religion, health

I'm fairly sure those criteria are all illegal, at least in most U.S. states if not at the federal level.

Also, it's a huge leap to say that discrimination is motivated by profits. I have no idea how you worked that one out.

Younger. More eager for the position? I doubt it. In fact I have moved on again and again, like so many here. You are speaking directly to discrimination that is illegal in the United States. We have a formal complaint process. I've never filed one. I have had a clear opportunity many many times. I'm sure many of us here have. We may need to start organizing. We may need to start filing these with enthusiasm and pride. This is how other discrimination battles are fought. People are kept silent on this one for fear of never working again. Perhaps it is time to stand up.

Yes, I want to be around those 20 year olds when I'm in my 40s. I want to be around a few 60 year olds as well. I don't want to just talk about diversity, I'd actually rather like to live it. Those who insist on living in bubbles can have it, even if it means I have to face unemployment after 40.

Mono-cultures aren't healthy, not for the individuals nor for the business itself.

So funny to be called older people when you are 43 and party with the best of them. Anyway.

This is why I decided to start my own company again after 4 1/2 years at Square.

This way age becomes an asset rather than a liability.

How do you recover? I'm only 33 and while I can still party with the best of them it takes it out of me. No more $1 drinks until midnight on Thursdays and being back at work at 8am.

I don't recover I just don't do it as often as I used to :) I have two kids how wake me up between 5-6 am.

More like experienced people are less likely to buy into just another rehash of a 30-years old idea.

Except if an "older than us" came into the business, the culture would change somewhat. But we always want to keep out people that are different from us, in the small and in the large.

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