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Comment by jdietrich | Hacker News Reader

Fifty years ago, you would have just knocked on your neighbour's door or asked the guys at bowling night. Wanting to borrow a drill or a tent isn't new; not knowing anyone to borrow it from is a peculiarly modern affliction.

I applaud any effort to rebuild our fractured society.

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When I was studying at MIT people would knock on my door all the time to borrow tools, cables, kitchen gadgets, and various other things that I typically had. I didn't mind at all. I think we need to reduce the amount of "stuff" in the world and share more.

Since I graduated and in the Bay Area now I realized that my closest friends, and pretty much anyone I knew, is no longer located next to me. Every time I want to borrow something it involves figuring out when someone living 20km away from me will be available, worry about bothering their schedule and making them stay home when they don't want to be, and then spending $25 on Uber rides* round trip to get it, and then another $25 on Uber rides to return it to them later. In most cases I could just buy that drill off Amazon for less than $50 instead.

*I don't own a car because I avoid using a car when not necessary (e.g. commuting with a bicycle and public transportation), only need a car for occasional hiking trips and events, and believe in sharing, and my Lyft+Uber+Zipcar+Enterprise costs per month are less than the cost of car ownership.

> my Lyft+Uber+Zipcar+Enterprise costs per month are less than the cost of car ownership

Especially if you count the cost of externalities. Thanks for doing the right thing!

As a current student there, it's real useful to be able to hit up a mailing list of your neighbors, when you need to borrow something.

What is it with MIT and mailing lists? I don't know anyone who doesn't go to MIT that uses them the way my MIT friends do.

I go to ASU, the only mailing lists I'm a part of are the ASU Linux User Group and a bunch of MIT lists that I've found my way to.

Mailing lists are awesome! E-mail is an open protocol so it's easy to write advanced filters that you can't do with Facebook or other walled gardens.

I had an algorithm trained to recognize free food, for example.

At MIT they can also double-up as AFS groups so it's easy to control access and message a team without having to update membership in two places.

Wasn't there a list for free food? (I assume you mean for mails sent to other lists..)

Op didn't say it was a complex algorithm. :)

It was a Bayesian spam filter I wrote and trained to recognize free food instead of spam. I signed myself onto about 800 mailing lists.

Probably generally old style hacker tradition. My company is also mostly email, email lists, and IRC.

more like what is it with the rest of the world that stopped using them (the answer is Facebook and IM, obviously)

It also used to cost proportionally more of your disposable income; You'd probably be more inclined to borrow an item if it would cost the next month's cash to acquire.

This is exactly it. The drill in question is the kind of thing you find on special at Home Depot for $30. Likewise for (just riffing on the stuff I see in the photos in the linked article) the therma-rests and tents for camping, or the collection of board games[1], etc...

Basically, the causality in the grandparent's analysis is wrong. We aren't refusing to borrow stuff from our neighbors because we're unable due to some modern affliction, we don't bother because someone gave us that drill for father's day last year. The junk is the cause, not the effect.

[1] Which is hardly a new phenomenon. The home I grew up in 40 years ago was drowning in these things too.

Home Depot also does rentals of more expensive items.

Does the US have tool renting places for contractors? The ones here have all sorts of tools, including massive stuff (e.g. Excavators, trench cutting equipment, graders). They aren't particularly cheap to use, but they have what is needed. Excessively dirty or broken tools get refunded too.

Yes, both the US and Canada have tool/equipment rental places that are used by both contractors and homeowners for this sort of thing. They're usually focused on the bigger ticket items, but often have smaller speciality items too.

The thing that interests me about the maker spaces is that they provide a _place_ for this activity where the equipment is already set up, and a community of people that are interested in sharing their skills. You don't really find that at the commercial tool rental places.

Certain tools do get me thinking of the neighbours - angle grinder and welder for sure.

I still wouldn't buy a drill today, but I'd consider renting one from Home Depot before asking neighbors (mostly because the idea of asking neighbors wouldn't cross my mind, to prove GP's point).

A drill/electric screwdriver is probably the most useful power tool today for a home owner. If you don't own one you likely wouldn't own any power tools. And at a car ride and $20 a day rental it doesn't take long to justify the on sale price. Are you space constrained or do you just not do simple maintenance yourself or is there some other reason my engineer brain isn't grokking.

Eg I wouldn't even work on a light switch without a power drill because I don't want to make the literal 200 revolution over 5 minutes per screw to check if it's out. Also it's harder to shock yourself.

And to be fair I own not just a drill but woodworking tools and metal working tools (lathe mill) and a 3d printer and cover a laser cutter and a welder that does aluminum. So maybe I'm biased.

"Eg I wouldn't even work on a light switch without a power drill because I don't want to make the literal 200 revolution over 5 minutes per screw"

200 revolutions, 5 minutes? What kind of screws are in your light switch?

I've never seen one that took a sizeable number revolutions.

A quick check suggests 6-32 threading is standard. That means 32 threads-per-inch, so your 200 revolutions means your light switch screws are six inches long??

Mild exaggeration. They're usually 2 inches from what I recall. If you're doing a lot of light switches or even a few it's still a lot of turns with your hand, or you know 2-3 seconds with a drill. But for 2 gang box, that's 4 2" screws + 4 decorative screws. So 5 minutes is not really an exaggeration to take all that out, about the same to put it all back in. And when you take into consideration how it's better to just shove a ton of wires into the box (as contractors do) instead of leaving the wires too short, the mechanical advantage of the drill doing the work allowing you to align the screw with minimal and accurate force instead of doing accurate alignment while cranking hard with a screwdriver... yes it's a big win.

And then you get to flat head decorative screws, I find it way easier to use a drill on those as it is easier to not scratch the paint off of the screws, which bothers me.

Most combo wire strippers will have screw cutters built into them to solve the "this screw is 4x longer than it needs to be" issue.

Thanks. Hadn't ever used the wire stripper screw cutting holes. https://diy.stackexchange.com/a/20876

Good to know. Never thought of that. Tho my loft had super deeply recessed boxes that fell back without the screws so you needed super long ones to tension the box to the drywall.

Or he has 12 1/2" screws. :)

Poster explicitly mentioned per screw

Poster was mildly exaggerating. Poster also prefers to get all the honey do sh*t done in one go instead of stopping because hand is tired. Honey do things encounter enough issues and trips to home depot that I'm not keen on adding 2 more (to pick up the drill and drop it off).

Poster sounds like my brother, who uses an impact driver on body panel nuts. :)

Poster was me, and I wouldn't do that. Besides 1/2 the time impact drivers won't even fit in those gaps. You gotta slip the thing in there and curse the engineer who designed it along with every other person servicing the thing ever.

One statistic I've seen is that a drill has on average about 10 minutes of use. So for a lot of people who own one it makes no sense at all. I for one simply borrow the hammer drill at work when I need it; at home I have a cordless screwdriver which takes care of screws and most holes that don't go into concrete or bricks.

Cordless screwdriver isn't far off from a drill, I would consider both for a homeowner.

Hammer drill is getting into more interesting things, I own one but I would definitely lend it out to a friend (with maybe some supervision the first time). I got mine at a steal like 25 years ago. But most people need to go through wood, plastic, or drywall, not concrete.

Also my drill has seen several hours of runtime but I also redid my loft apartment, and am generally handy.

Hammer drill is what I meant with drill, as the cordless screwdriver suffices for most other things. In Europe you need it pretty much in every home as walls are brick and concrete. Wood, plastic, or drywall are rather uncommon construction materials for walls here.

This also means that drilling a hole in ten seconds doesn't work often.

This doesn't seem that surprising given that a hole takes ~10 seconds to drill... ie. if you have 10 projects over the course of a few years that need a handful of holes each, it's probably still worth it to buy a drill, unless borrowing one happens to be very convenient...

True. It's not like someone else can use your drill while you're fumbling around for different bits, screws, aligning things, etc.

That's appalling. Who buys a drill to use it that infrequently?

Lots of people buy stuff like a drill, use it once, and never use it again for years. They can do it because equipment like this is dirt cheap; it's worth the cost of the item to solve the initial problem; it's a bonus if it ever gets used again.

10 minutes of use over what time period?

Yeah. That's really a bad example. If you ever do just about any amount of housework a good cordless drill and the associated bits are the one piece of power tool gear you'll pull out on a regular basis. I have various things out in my workshop I use rarely but the drill (and my Dremel) are in my closet and get pulled out all the time.

Is this actually true? Is there anyone here who was an adult in the 60s / 70s who can attest to this?

Even then it would be anecdotal.

If we've got data let's go with the data. If all we've got is opinions let's go with mine.

I'd probably not be inclined to borrow a thing if it cost next month's cash to replace it when I break it.

I would be more inclined to hire a thing from a company who hires things. That way, if it breaks, no one is put out.

I remember my parents lending their caravan to friends in the seventies, they would lend and borrow tools as well. The reason I remember is they were constantly complaining about the state things were returned in, breakages were frequent.

I have a random alternate data point. There are a ton of craftsman metal lathes out there from the 20s to 60s. I think more people had way more workshop capabilities. But anecdotally I notice that people prefer to either do metal stuff or wood stuff. They take the same type of tools but don't really cross over (wood lathe really doesn't work on metal and vice versa). Enough so that most people can't afford both, in terms of space or money. Also hot metal chips cause sawdust to go up in flames, sawdust gets all up in your metal cutting oils and coolant, so you have to keep a cleaner shop than usual.

As for renting stuff, rental gear is usually beat to shit by people who a) don't know what they're doing, b) are too cheap to pay for the real tool, so they'll use a small sander (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B006EKFZQ4/ref=asc_df_B006EKFZQ450...) rental to resurface their floor when they need a full size one to really do a house (https://www.amazon.com/Clarke-Drum-Sander-Ez-8-Expandable/dp...) [had a friend do this, but he just under rented and went right back an hour later], or use a drill as a saw, c) or just don't give a shit about the equipment and beat the crap out of it anyway... eg moral hazard. I've rented tools where it looked like it was fine and immediately broke (person glued the pull starter onto the engine when string broke). I then had to spend an hour discussing with the rental place if I broke it. Another time they forgot a part and tried to charge me for it then 20 minutes later found it on the floor. They're generally a good store but it's a shitty market.

In my neighborhood in France we keep lending/borrowing each other stuff all the time. It probably helps that most of the resident are eldery people who accumulated a bunch of useful stuff.

Agree, the more expensive something is, the less inclined I am to borrow it.

Or lend it out, for that matter.

But even a $10 tool I won't led out. No, you're not borrowing my 15mm spanner because I'll never get it back.

That could be less of a problem when you're borrowing it from an actual service like the one in the article.

Yeah, that's basically it: I won't borrow or lend out from individuals, but when there's a contract in place (supported by a membership fee in this case) that defines the limits of liability and cost of replacement then it's not borrowing anyway. It is, as someone else mentioned, hiring.

People hire cars all the time. If you break it you are put out. Same usually with rental equipment. Or you pay the "insurance" on it, which no one does.

indeed, outside of luxury items, things have become very cheap. real estate, health care, and education have become very expensive. As an aside, one can pin the persistence of ZIRP on the Fed measuring the wrong things.

https://www.vox.com/new-money/2017/5/4/15547364/baumol-cost-...

I found this graph in that article particularly interesting:

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/jizjAuIFp6g2ADWJCZv3tfj34cA=...

The alternative explanation for those items is that items whose price is subsidized and/or not fully disclosed to the consumer tend to rise. The graph shows everything dropping in price except:

- shelter (slight rise - real estate is tax advantaged and routinely debt-financed over decades)

- medical care (significant rise, and insurance and tax shelter of insurance and government programs hide the full cost)

- college (very heavily subsidized, by government, schools, and parents)

The other items the article mentions (summer camps, veterinary care, and broadway shows) are all luxury goods. At least if you're not a farmer/rancher for a living.

Yes, the thesis that services become relatively more expensive is interesting, but the effect of subsidies and hidden prices is well understood already.

It is still done, and it pisses me off a lot.

I am usually the one with all the stuff, especially tools. And people tend to borrow from me a lot. I tend to be fine with it, but some people abuse it. They damage my stuff or lose parts and don't offer any kind of compensation, expect me to take care of the return or just forget it, etc... These people are a minority, but they are also those who tend to borrow the most.

With this mindset, it is no surprise people get protective of their stuff. At least, a "library of things" has ways of dealing with abusers without endangering friendly relationships.

The problem is, that you have to move for every new job. Our parents and grandparents lived in the same very spot for decades.

Studies indicate that Americans are moving less than ever before: People move for college, and will probably move again to their first job, but people move a lot less often afterwards. An important reason is that two salaries per family is the norm if you want to live comfortably, and looking for two jobs somewhere else that aren't a net loss is not all that common.

At the same time, moving for people without college degrees is even lower, because their lives require a strong social support network, and that doesn't move with you. This is part of why growth in the poorest parts of the country is not in any way catching up with big metro areas.

What is really weakening social structures is that we both have a country full of suburbia and unstable work environments. This leaves few opportunities to build friendships after college. Friendship is easy if you met the same people all the time organically: Super dense cities or even vacation resorts give plenty of opportunity to keep interacting with the same people without trying hard. Nowadays, the only place that gives us that opportunity is work, and once someone changes jobs, the interactions go away.

We see very similar situations in multiplayer videogames. A first person shooter with dedicated servers that people select builds a community. Joining a random queue makes sure you never meet the same people often enough to build connections.

In life, people get through this by just using group hobbies as excuses. I know many people that go to 10+ conventions a year, just to meet other people that also do this, and end up building friendships even when living far away. Similar things happen with computer conferences. The flipside is that all that travel weakens families: I know someone that this year is on track to spend 3 months away from home, mostly because this person enjoys it. The problem is that they have two daughters. You can imagine what the girls aren't taking it well.

I suspect that humanity will keep working on new techniques to avoid the loneliness and inefficiency that comes from very weak social links: Like in many other areas, it's a case where changes are coming faster than humans adapt, but we can't just keep working this way.

This. In the last 10 years I have lived in 7 different places in 5 different cities. Either because I had to move or because my wife got a new job. Most of my friends growing up live in a town I haven't lived within 300 miles of in 13 years.

4/5 times if I make a new friend one of us (sometimes me, sometimes them) moves far away within three years.

I bought a house a few years ago so now I have forced stability (moving is too expensive so to make me move it would have to be an incredible opportunity).

That's part of it, but part of it is also that our communities are physically structured very differently. My parents have lived in the same neighborhood fifteen years and don't really know any of their neighbors. Their neighborhood is a modern cul-de-sac of McMansions designed to make it easy to ignore the people around you. In contrast, my wife and I moved into a pre-car era neighborhood just six months ago. We already know a ton of neighbors. It's hard not to meet them when every house has a porch and sits on a lot 1/5 the minimum lot size in the county.

This. We lived in a similar 1920's neighborhood for about 3 years now, and are friendly with many of the neighbors. We have borrowed a ladder, tools, and exchanged garden vegetables. One neighbor gave me his old power drill. We loaned out our car once. You definitely meet more people when you have a front porch.

You don't have to move for new jobs, you have to move for the kinds of jobs people on HN want.

Not necessarily true. I know people who have moved to get low paying jobs at retail stores because the closest place hiring unskilled labor would have been a several hours of driving every day.

Not so much any more, I think the market has improved. But still, most of the low to middle income people I know don't live in their home town any more because there simple aren't a lot of job in small town America so they go to cities.

Or just getting priced out of your apartment, that 2.5% raise can't hold up against 5% lease increase for long if you were already on the cusp of affordability.

I don't know that this is true. I have been in the same smallish town (Boulder) for almost two decades and have had a number of different jobs (startups, contracting, smallcos).

I run a neighborhood mailing list and was thrilled when my lawnmower broke and I asked to borrow one on the list. I had five or so folks happy to lend me theirs.

However, it was hard for me to ask. Was it pride, fear of being turned down or them thinking "why doesn't he just buy one"? Not sure.

Do you use nextdoor or do you collect email addresses from neighbors?

Boulder is the exception, not the rule. It's a tech and startup heavy city with higher than average employment rates.

Exception to what? America lacking cohesive neighborhoods? Neighbors being unwilling to share equipment?

FWIW one of the older neighbors has a snow blower and uses it to snowblow the sidewalk on his side. I asked him to borrow it once and he quickly said "I never lend anyone my tools."

The exception with respect to the parent's first comment about jobs in one city; not talking about the borrowing.

I'm sure that's backwards. Earlier generations were more likely to move around than are Millenials. See Census Bureau "Americans Moving at Historically Low Rates" November 2016.

How is that the problem? I've had my current neighbors for a few months and we've borrowed several things from each other. Lived in a house in a different place for a year and a half. Great friends with the folks next door and borrowed things from each other regularly. You just have to go talk to people when they move in, invite them over for a barbecue and boom - now you're friends. Not that hard to redo every time someone changes a job.

There are so many things I'd love to own. Golf clubs, snowboard, records, guitar, even just nice wine glasses. But I move far and often and have not found a way to move or store my own things.

All the jobs I've moved for paid for me to move. I priced moving my big shit before and it was not really any more expensive than other stuff like a motorcycle. It's just pure weight.

This is very true, however, in my experience seems mostly limited to apartments/condos, when I've lived in apartments I rarely interact with my neighbors. When I've lived in houses in less dense areas I've always been friendly with my neighbors and frequently borrowed tools, ladders and other household items from them. Go meet your neighbors everyone, make friends and then you don't all need to have a 20ft extension ladder! I wonder if other people have seen the same trend?

Where I live (near Palo Alto), people borrow/loan stuff on Nextdoor all the time. It has been a good way to avoid one-time purchases, and to get to know neighbors.

I'm not sure this accomplishes any rebuilding though. Sure, it's a place one can borrow things for a fee, but so is Rent-A-Center and the amount of social interaction is the same as any retail store. One might get to know the people there over time, but it's hardly necessary to do so.

I think in a time when one might not know one's neighbors well, it might help to have an inventory of things available --we would know who has an awl or a wet vacuum, etc.

That is a very salient point. When isn't society being re-built, though?

More to the point, those 'golden days' still happen, and are not unique to any particular culture. There are plenty of neighborhoods in the world still yet where these things happen.

This still happens in my town. It probably still happens in any community where it would have happened 50 years ago and doesn't in ones it wouldn't have happened in. Your view on what our society is like right now is colored by where you live.

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