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Using tabs has the opposite of your intended effect: If there is any text which is vertically aligned beyond the first indent, then this alignment will break for anyone who doesn't have your tab width preference. They're then forced to change their editor settings to view your file in a non-broken way. I get way more pissed about someone else "forcing their preferences on me" when this happens than when I run into a tidy, 2-space-indented file.

If you configure your editor to drop spaces when you hit 'tab', then the file is guaranteed to look the same for everyone, and stops being context-dependent-- a bad thing for plain text, IMO.

Your issue is why you see people say "tabs for indentation, spaces for alignment." If you're trying to vertically align text, use tabs to keep it at the same indentation as the thing you're aligning to, and use spaces to adjust to vertical alignment.

This will keep the vertical alignment regardless of the preferred width of the tab.

So for long lines to move an argument over to align with its predecessor on the previous line, like

    int f() {
        int someVariableName = myFunctionCall(expr(5),          // <--- line A
                                              somethingElse(9), // <--- line B
                                              a_long * expression + involving(multiple.subExprs));
        int d = somethingElse; // <-- line C
    }

...you're saying line A is indented with tabs, and line B with spaces? Because that will misalign if your tab setting isn't the same.

Or are you saying that both A and B are indented with spaces? Then what about line C, which will misalign with A and B if your tab stop is a different width?

Or do we indent the entire body of f() with spaces, and then in that case you're basically using spaces everywhere, which the good idea that sparked this whole thing?

I think he's saying use tabs on lines A, B, and C up until the indentation level (the "int"). Then on line B use spaces for all the whitespace from there until the text is aligned.

    /*t*/int f() {
    /*tabs*/int someVariableName = myFunctionCall(expr(5),          // <--- line A
    /*tabs*//*--------------spaces--------------*/somethingElse(9), // <--- line B
    /*tabs*//*--------------spaces--------------*/a_long * expression + involving(multiple.subExprs));
    /*tabs*/int d = somethingElse; // <-- line C
    /*t*/}

There's no reason to do this silly mix of tabs and spaces. Just move all parameters to a newline have have sane consistency everywhere:

    int f() {
    <tab> someVariableName = myFunctionCall(
    <tab><tab> expr(5),
    <tab><tab> somethingElse(9),
    <tab><tab> a_long * expression + involving(multiple.subExprs)
    <tab> );
    <tab> d = somethingElse;
    }

You indent line A with tabs. You use tabs to line the start of line B up with the start of line A (indentation) and then use spaces to move it the rest of the way to where you want it (alignment).

And as an aside, it's worth pointing out that most editors will handle the initial tab part automatically, so it's not like you have to do mental math to think "okay, this many tabs, and now switch to spaces". Just at the end of line A, you hit enter and start hammering the space bar.

I think this is what parent meant:

  1 int f() {
  2 >---int someVariableName = myFunctionCall(expr(5),
  3 >---                                      somethingElse(9),
  4 >---                                      a_long * expression + involving(multiple.subExprs));
  5 >---int d = somethingElse;
  6 }

Tabs only for indentation (lines 2 to 5), spaces for alignment (lines 3 and 4). This is easy to achieve if you use Vim with Smart Tabs for instance (https://vim.sourceforge.io/scripts/script.php?script_id=231).

A is indented with a tab.

B is indented with a tab, plus the requisite number of spaces to line up with the above line.

C is indented with a tab.

Does anyone actually do that? I've never noticed that style in any code I've read, but maybe that just means it works.

I don't think anyone manually counts out their tabs and spaces, but I think every major text editor has a mode or plugin to make this automatic.

I always see this brought and wonder, what are people vertically alogning, and why? I generally see vertical alignment as an anti-pattern that makes it harder to change code.

"that makes it harder to change code".

Hm,... that could actually be a feature! Adding inertia. Not that I would use that, but it makes me think..^^

Indent with tabs. Align with spaces.

Indent with the tab key, let the editor replace it with spaces.

Soft tabs FTW.

(F#, where indentation matters, and Clojure using Parinfer where indentation matters to get the form placement correct both make tab characters horrible to use.)

This is another style thing, I think. When writing Objective-C I always use spaces because lining things up is idiomatic to the way the language is written. Same with Python which has well-codified style rules for many multi-line argument lists and the like. However, beyond that, I don't tend to line up assignments or anything else that has me doing indenting with spaces AND tabs, so (at least with my code) this doesn't end up being an issue.

If I was working on a project where there was a strong preference for indenting assignments, or any other case like this, I would use spaces throughout.

vertical align serves no purpose. why would anyone ever considers it important?

silly js devs and their var block...

Indentation is literally a form of vertical alignment. And unless white space is significant in your chosen PL, all forms indentation/spacing serves no purpose. What does you code look like?

you know i meant vertical align on things that are not control blocks, such as assignment values and such. but nice try ;)

I think tab users are naive, misguided idealists rather than people who made a deliberate choice to screw over their fellow devs, sure. Tabs do indeed seem like they ought to be "more egalitarian" as you describe. It just doesn't work out that way in practice; it ends up more exclusionary because you wind up with a codebase that you can only work on if you have particular tabstops set up, rather than one that you can at least edit in any editor.

This is another style thing, I think. When writing Objective-C I always use spaces because lining things up is idiomatic to the language. Same with Python which has well-codified rules for many multi-line argument lists and the like. However, beyond that, I don't tend to line up assignments or anything else that has me doing "special indenting", so (at least with my code) this doesn't end up being an issue.

If I was working on a project where there was a strong preference for indenting assignments, or any other case like this, I would use spaces throughout.

You are clearly being thoughtful, but the problem with tabs and mixing them into code is that when multiple people write the code, some spaces are going to slip into that tab heaven, and then indentation will break for someone.

So by choosing tabs, either the file must be consistently formatted with tabs by everyone always, or everyone must look at the code in the same editor configured in the same way always.

I remember reading jwz's rant on this long time ago and not getting it until I had the first what-is-going-on-here moment due to wrong indentation from mixed tabs and spaces. jwz is right. Stop using tabs.

I'm honestly not that worked up about tabs/spaces, I just get frustrated when I see people assuming those indenting with tabs are careless or anti-social. I only indent with tabs on projects where I have control over the style standard.

About your argument, though: Isn't is also possible for someone to copy/paste something with tabs into space-indented code? Isn't is also possible for someone's editor to start off with tab-based indentation by default instead of space-based and mistakenly add the wrong whitespace to the project?

My main reason for preferring spaces is that I have yet to work in any context where tabs occurred where it did not end up with mangled formatting sooner or later. Yes, often because it ended up being mixed with spaces, accidentally or intentionally, but nevertheless it seems to me to end with someone making a mess of it.

If everyone used tabs perfectly, I'd be fine with them...

Isn't is also possible for someone to copy/paste something with tabs into space-indented code? Isn't is also possible for someone's editor to start off with tab-based indentation by default instead of space-based and mistakenly add the wrong whitespace to the project?

As I've said in other parts of this thread, I'm not that worked up about tabs vs. spaces, and I use spaces most of the time. I just don't find this argument for space superiority very convincing.

PS: If everyone showed invisible characters in their editors, I think the world would be a better place.

A decent editor can be configured to convert those tabs to spaces on paste.

And if you stick to only spaces it is trivial to reject tab containing code in commit hooks. It's harder to reject code that uses spaces wrong in tab-indented code, unless you outlaw spaces for alignment too.

I agree with you and kinda wish people would take a combined approach.

Tabs are better for indentation preferences. Spaces ensure that everyone sees the same thing, which can help in multi-line situations.

So I wish people would avoid this black-and-white discussion. Use tabs for indentation, and spaces for multi-line alignment...

"So I wish people would avoid this black-and-white discussion."

^ complaint about "black-and-white" discussion

"Use tabs for indentation, and spaces for multi-line alignment..."

^ totally "black-and-white" solution

:-D

wait, but that defeats the purpose of both, right? if you change the width of your tabs, then the hard-spaced multi-line parts will no longer align.

They mean like this, where `-` is tab and `.` is space:

    --def myfunc(
    ---foobar = 1,
    ---...baz = 2
    --)

(silly example, idk, you get what i mean)

No matter what size tab stops you use, the `=` will always line up vertically, because the tabs are only used for the indentation (nesting level), not the visual alignment.

No, your editor just inserts as many tabs as the initial line had, then spaces over appropriately. This will align properly with any tab setting.

I think the real problem with tabs is that so many people use weak editors.

It would be ironic to use tab characters as some kind of magnanimous concession to other developers' preferences while at the same time requiring them to drop their editor of choice.

yeah, reading this entire thread shows why spaces is more popular. nobody knows how to use tabs properly.

"As someone who slightly prefers tabs" ... "I generally prefer tabs"

wat

I generally prefer tabs, but I don't use them when writing Python (which is most of my job these days). I'm also not all that hung up about it, so I started with "slightly".

Well assuming correlation implies causation (always safe), enjoy being poor.

Some things are more important than money. Let this tab-idealist enjoy a tab-ful life in the way that they see fit.

Honestly, I'm not even that much of an idealist. I think using the same indentation style as the general community is important, so I use spaces most of the time day-to-day. My biggest point was: maybe we don't need to berate/assume things about others for having different preferences than us?

I can assure you that I'm not poor ;)