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Comment by Animats | Hacker News Reader

"Kosher" is no longer a set of objective standards. That ended when two Jewish groups fought it out in court over New York State's kosher inspection law in 1991. They were arguing over which rabbi got to declare that something was kosher.[1] A Federal judge ruled that government can't take a position on that issue, because it's an establishment of religion to do so. So New York State got out of the kosher-inspection business.

There are many kosher inspection groups in the US, especially in Brooklyn, NY, which has at least sixteen.[2]. There's a whole "more kosher than you" thing going there. In Israel, where the government is heavily involved, it's used as a competitive weapon to stop some imports.[3]

[1] http://www.nytimes.com/2000/08/04/nyregion/judge-voids-law-c... [2] http://www.crcweb.org/agency_list.php [3] http://www.globes.co.il/en/article-how-food-importers-use-ra...

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"Kosher" has never been a set of objective standards. Jews have been arguing about it for thousands of years. It's not a scientific law; it's rules set out by rabbis and basically every aspect of it has been contested at points.

If you're interested in learning more about this kind of kashrut system, there's a fascinating book about the topic: "Kosher: Private Regulation in the Age of Industrial Food". [1]

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Kosher-Private-Regulation-Industrial-...

> "Kosher" is no longer a set of objective standards.

While it's true that there are different interpretations of what constitutes kosher food, it's not really relevant here, as none consider pork to be kosher.

How about the blowtorching of existing ovens which have previously been used to cook pork products? Is that always "kosher"?

That was the most interesting tidbit to me, and seems like requirements for that procedure could easily vary between certifying organizations.

> Is that always "kosher"?

Yes, that is always required. The basic rule: The same type of heat that was used to cook the food, is the same type of heat needed on the vessel to clean out the food. The minimum heat is boiling water.

Since an oven gets very hot, you need high heat to clean it. (Hot enough that a tissue pressed on the metal turns black - it doesn't need to glow red hot.)

> and seems like requirements for that procedure could easily vary between certifying organizations.

No, that's not one of the things that vary, that one's universal.

To an outsider, the stuff that varies would seem very minor. It won't be anything large like this.

If only the mafia got into the kosher business

Already happened.

Rabbi Yisroel Belsky, who was a senior advisor on kosher correctness ("kashrut") for the Orthodox Union, was implicated in the "Prodfather" operation. "Rabbi Mendel Epstein, 70, was dubbed “The Prodfather” after he was convicted of charging desperate wives thousands of dollars to torture their husbands into compliance. The white-bearded Talmudic scholar once bragged about using an electric cattle prod to persuade the men to sign a religious divorce document, known as a “get.”"[1]

Epstein operated in Brooklyn. His goons used a warehouse in New Jersey for the beatings. Belsky was the rabbi who certified that the documents signed by the victims were legitimate. "Epstein ... explained that it would cost $10,000 to pay for the rabbis to approve the coercion at a beth din, plus $60,000 to cover the “tough guys.”"[2]

This racket worked for about ten years, until somebody complained to the FBI and the FBI set up a sting operation, with Epstein's goons kidnapping an undercover FBI agent. Epstein is in Federal prison; Belsky died in 2016.

[1] http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/rabbi-10-years-beating-j... [2] https://www.villagevoice.com/2013/12/04/bad-rabbi-tales-of-e...

I feel bad for the wives though. They had someone (who was willing to risk jail) trying to help them, and now they don't.

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