Comment by WordSkill | Hacker News Reader

Comment by WordSkill | Hacker News Reader

The complexity of German taxes and all the other red tape seems to be the main reason why people change their mind about starting up in Berlin but, personally, it was the rudeness that wore me down.

Berliners can be very nice in certain situations, such as the people you work with, but they have a hostile service culture. Not every time, or in every service situation, but you will have enough bad experiences in shops, restaurants and trains to find it annoying, especially if you are accustomed to the more positive service culture in the US, UK and Ireland.

The other problem is that many Berliners regard young foreign workers as being the reason why rents are increasing and this became a political issue a few years ago. I'm not sure what the current situation is but, at that time, you would see graffiti around town, letting you know that you were not welcome, and you would frequently hear the same sentiment expressed in social situations. Ironically, the people who were quickest to let you know that the foreign tech workers were not welcome were the same "anti-fascist" trendies who call everyone else racist.

This hostility wasn't something I experienced when living in other German cities, it seems to be a Berlin-specific phenomenon.

>"Not every time, or in every service situation, but you will have enough bad experiences in shops, restaurants and trains to find it annoying, especially if you are accustomed to the more positive service culture in the US, UK and Ireland."

Can you elaborate on this? Is there an underlying reason for it? Lack of demand for better service from consumers that might cause companies to compete on service? Is there an opportunity to differentiate on service over there?

Many European cultures consider the inauthentic cheerfulness that is expected as part of emotional labor in Anglophone societies distasteful (I have been living in North America for many years, and still find it distasteful), and workers in those cultures rightly recognize these demands for emotional labor as being harmful to their mental health (see for example Hochschild's seminal The Managed Heart: Commercialization of Human Feeling).

What makes you think that the cheerfulness is "inauthentic"?

Some people actually do genuinely like other people and enjoy helping them.

That you find it "inauthentic" may say more about you than it does about the service workers you're encountering.

Enter a Disney shop, in many parts of the world and somebody will say "Hello, how are you?" Leave the shop and that same greeter will say "Have a great day!"

That always feels incredibly forced, and very very fake.

But what do I know, I'm British ..!

Disney stores are...ummm... not a representative sample. :-)

Very much so, but its a good example of fakeness/insincerity that matches the topic.

Maybe in the sense that Fascist Italy or Nazi Germany would be a good example of "European politics".

The OP was making a general observation about the United States as a whole. Picking an extreme example like Disney is a Hasty Generalization fallacy.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFalla...

I was trying to suggest that those stores, here in Europe, have greeters and those greeters are the very epitome of fakeness - which the parent was referring to.

I suspect the confusion comes because people assumed I meant Disney stores in the states.

> That you find it "inauthentic" may say more about you than it does about the service workers you're encountering.

As would one's inability to understand eye contact and body language.

Body language and eye contact protocols differ between cultures. A lot.

Have you considered the possibility that you are presenting yourself as what they see as rude and unfriendly, thus leading them to be uncomfortable while serving you?

Have you considered the possibility that maybe it is you who is misunderstanding people? For example, my comment about eye contact and body language was actually an insult meant to imply that you lacked the ability to read either. On the other hand I usually have pleasant interactions with workers, and I also do not go around complaining when I receive less than enthusiastic service. One of the manners that helps in having pleasant interactions is avoiding giving strangers unsolicited advice, about their behavior or otherwise.

"Have you considered the possibility that maybe it is you who is misunderstanding people?"

Well, we have two alternatives here:

1) A person who grew up in a culture has a gross misunderstanding of the norms of that culture.

2) Someone who grew up in a totally different culture has a gross misunderstanding of the norms of that culture.

Now, which of those two seems more likely to you?

"For example, my comment about eye contact and body language was actually an insult meant to imply that you lacked the ability to read either."

Oh, I got that. I was just attempting to be polite by ignoring you being a jerk. Maybe someone is forcing me to do "unpaid emotional labor" or something.

Once again: it's not them. It's you.

My original comment was to point out the cultural inappropriateness and onerousness of late stage capitalists' demands for emotional labor.

Your response was to suggest that it is actually my fault and that I am behaving inappropriately.

You see nothing insulting about that? You are the jerk here.

You seem to be a very unpleasant person all around. Goodbye.

> What makes you think that the cheerfulness is "inauthentic"?

The fact that workers are trained in cheerfulness, and are given a set of phrases they must say, and that they say these phrases all day everyday to every single person they meet makes me think the cheerfulness is inauthentic.

Being trained in cheerfulness doesn't make the cheerfulness "inauthentic" any more than being trained to make hamburgers makes the hamburger "inauthentic".

Good grief.

Thank you for the reference! I happen to knew it before, but forgot the name and could not find it anymore.

This is fascinating to learn about, and I definitely understand the reasoning behind it.

When I was in Vienna visiting a friend, we went to a traditional coffee shop where we were waited on by a grumpy old man in a suit (emphasis on grump). Would that be an example of this?

This is absolutely an example of this. Don't take it personally. The guy was probably grumpy to everybody else that day too.

Its the result of a general consensus in Germanic countries that forced happiness is distasteful (as has been mentioned) and a lesser appreciation of politeness between strangers. Its not that they are trying to deliberately be rude to you its just that they don't bother to feign cheeriness. Of course this is a massive generalization but overall its an observation of whats valued in the culture.

This is in complete contrast with Americans who will go out of their way to seem happy and cheery, "Hey, my name's Steve, how are you today? So happy to have you in my shop!" - when all you want to buy is a stick of gum..

The UK is a bit different from both the USA and Germany in that they definitely value politeness and cordiality between strangers (whether in a customer service setting or just in general) but they find any overt displays of emotion distasteful so prefer to keep the politeness low-key. Only mentioning the UK because some people are comparing Germanic values with English speaking countries so just wanted to make the distinction.

Definitely didn't take it personally since my local friend gave me the heads up before we went in.

Where does that notion of finding forced happiness distasteful stem from originally? For that matter, now I wonder where the opposite in America stems from.

> Where does that notion of finding forced happiness distasteful stem from originally? For that matter, now I wonder where the opposite in America stems from.

I can speculate that it's just general cultural differences. America has an self-made, "everyone can be a millionaire" spirit, which encourages people to push harder to earn a dollar (up to the point of routinely faking emotions), while in Europe the culture seems to be more like "you're not going to be a millionaire, so just relax and try enjoying life".

I (as an European) think the European way is just realistic, while American way is a distortion created by a period in American history where people came to America with nothing and got lots of good land for cheap/free from the government (which created the illusion that hard work is a very solid way for hugely improving your material position).

Putting in my two cents as a German living in Berlin: it's a cultural thing.

There is even a German word for it (of course, right?): Servicewüste (= service desert, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servicew%C3%BCste)

There is no cultural norm to strive to appear happy and friendly at all times and there are simply people who don't care to hide their grumpiness. Whether that would classify as a "bad" experience is in the eye of the beholder I guess. I mostly have a chuckle over a grumpy counterpart.

When language barriers come into play I've seen examples of both sides: people getting colleagues to help out, being supportive and friendly to solve the issues at hand and others who didn't try to hide their frustration or make an effort.

Given the amount of English speaking people in the city won't decrease for the foreseeable future, there isn't much of a problem you can't solve even as a non-German speaker I'd say.

Sadly, the hostile service culture seems to be prevalent in the whole Germanic world.

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