Ask HN: How friendly is Berlin for startups?
How are procedures to open a startup in Berlin / Germany? What about taxes? Is it generally a startup friendly environment?
Berliners can be very nice in certain situations, such as the people you work with, but they have a hostile service culture. Not every time, or in every service situation, but you will have enough bad experiences in shops, restaurants and trains to find it annoying, especially if you are accustomed to the more positive service culture in the US, UK and Ireland.
The other problem is that many Berliners regard young foreign workers as being the reason why rents are increasing and this became a political issue a few years ago. I'm not sure what the current situation is but, at that time, you would see graffiti around town, letting you know that you were not welcome, and you would frequently hear the same sentiment expressed in social situations. Ironically, the people who were quickest to let you know that the foreign tech workers were not welcome were the same "anti-fascist" trendies who call everyone else racist.
This hostility wasn't something I experienced when living in other German cities, it seems to be a Berlin-specific phenomenon.
Can you elaborate on this? Is there an underlying reason for it? Lack of demand for better service from consumers that might cause companies to compete on service? Is there an opportunity to differentiate on service over there?
Some people actually do genuinely like other people and enjoy helping them.
That you find it "inauthentic" may say more about you than it does about the service workers you're encountering.
That always feels incredibly forced, and very very fake.
But what do I know, I'm British ..!
The OP was making a general observation about the United States as a whole. Picking an extreme example like Disney is a Hasty Generalization fallacy.
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFalla...
I suspect the confusion comes because people assumed I meant Disney stores in the states.
As would one's inability to understand eye contact and body language.
Have you considered the possibility that you are presenting yourself as what they see as rude and unfriendly, thus leading them to be uncomfortable while serving you?
Well, we have two alternatives here:
1) A person who grew up in a culture has a gross misunderstanding of the norms of that culture.
2) Someone who grew up in a totally different culture has a gross misunderstanding of the norms of that culture.
Now, which of those two seems more likely to you?
"For example, my comment about eye contact and body language was actually an insult meant to imply that you lacked the ability to read either."
Oh, I got that. I was just attempting to be polite by ignoring you being a jerk. Maybe someone is forcing me to do "unpaid emotional labor" or something.
Once again: it's not them. It's you.
Your response was to suggest that it is actually my fault and that I am behaving inappropriately.
You see nothing insulting about that? You are the jerk here.
The fact that workers are trained in cheerfulness, and are given a set of phrases they must say, and that they say these phrases all day everyday to every single person they meet makes me think the cheerfulness is inauthentic.
Good grief.
When I was in Vienna visiting a friend, we went to a traditional coffee shop where we were waited on by a grumpy old man in a suit (emphasis on grump). Would that be an example of this?
Its the result of a general consensus in Germanic countries that forced happiness is distasteful (as has been mentioned) and a lesser appreciation of politeness between strangers. Its not that they are trying to deliberately be rude to you its just that they don't bother to feign cheeriness. Of course this is a massive generalization but overall its an observation of whats valued in the culture.
This is in complete contrast with Americans who will go out of their way to seem happy and cheery, "Hey, my name's Steve, how are you today? So happy to have you in my shop!" - when all you want to buy is a stick of gum..
The UK is a bit different from both the USA and Germany in that they definitely value politeness and cordiality between strangers (whether in a customer service setting or just in general) but they find any overt displays of emotion distasteful so prefer to keep the politeness low-key. Only mentioning the UK because some people are comparing Germanic values with English speaking countries so just wanted to make the distinction.
Where does that notion of finding forced happiness distasteful stem from originally? For that matter, now I wonder where the opposite in America stems from.
I can speculate that it's just general cultural differences. America has an self-made, "everyone can be a millionaire" spirit, which encourages people to push harder to earn a dollar (up to the point of routinely faking emotions), while in Europe the culture seems to be more like "you're not going to be a millionaire, so just relax and try enjoying life".
I (as an European) think the European way is just realistic, while American way is a distortion created by a period in American history where people came to America with nothing and got lots of good land for cheap/free from the government (which created the illusion that hard work is a very solid way for hugely improving your material position).
There is even a German word for it (of course, right?): Servicewüste (= service desert, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servicew%C3%BCste)
There is no cultural norm to strive to appear happy and friendly at all times and there are simply people who don't care to hide their grumpiness. Whether that would classify as a "bad" experience is in the eye of the beholder I guess. I mostly have a chuckle over a grumpy counterpart.
When language barriers come into play I've seen examples of both sides: people getting colleagues to help out, being supportive and friendly to solve the issues at hand and others who didn't try to hide their frustration or make an effort.
Given the amount of English speaking people in the city won't decrease for the foreseeable future, there isn't much of a problem you can't solve even as a non-German speaker I'd say.
1. Very easy to form a company in Germany as a foreigner 2. You will need a native german speaker, it's beauracratic and you need to speak solid German to deal with it. 3. Taxes are higher than the US, but they are fair. You pay more as you earn more. 4. There are many taxes as an individual you can claim back, such as clothes, travel to work, space in your house etc. If you get a good accountant they can really help. 5. Berlin itself is very cheap to get a great location, good tech talent but not overflowing, incredibly decent lifestyle, lots of space, lovely place to live a chilled out vibe.
I'd say if you've lived in Germany and Berlin and like it, you can do it. If you have never lived there you should move their first and see if you like the German way of life first, it's not like US or UK.
I've been thinking about living/working in Berlin for some time now. I've always respected German engineering, one of my favorite authors is Herman Hesse, I enjoy the nature photography I've seen of the German countryside, and I've heard amazing things about their beer/food.
Are people in German nice to Indian people? Not sure with all the politics of the EU at the moment, the media makes things confusing. Utah was a little weird for anyone who isn't LDS AND white or married to a white person. There is what I call a fake niceness about many people there, a few are genuinely nice though.
I've heard German people are very friendly and intelligent, what was your experience?
If you have an Indian accent, that should be pretty recognizable. If you don't speak, though, expect people to think that you're from the Middle East, a region that's (to say it lightly) not that popular with a certain part of Germans.
Which isn't to say that you won't be able to make friends. Quite on the contrary. The outspoken racism of a small part of the population (catch phrase: "I'm not a nazi, BUT...") has made another part of the population even more willing to embrace multiculturalism.
I think Berlin will be okay for me because I'm working on a platform that aims to solve a few environmental issues. Germany is very progressive in that arena, Utah has been in the news around the world for the whole Public Lands fiasco.
Berlin winters are sometimes described as Russian. While I've never been to Russia I think it's a fitting description. They tend to be very cold and dry. -20 degrees centigrade is nothing unheard of.
You crazy.
Before Dresden, I lived north of Berlin, near the Baltic Sea, and I don't recall -20°C there either. (Well, maybe it happened a few times over the course of my childhood, but I cannot recall anymore.)
(tl;dr - hovering around 0C)
What I'm wondering is how difficult would it be to find a job once there, or how long - on average would it take. Would you know by any chance?
Could you (or anyone else) recommend places to look into? Visa isn't a problem.
The procedures to open a startup in Germany are complex. This is the cheapest way: Go to the notary and create a "UG" after "Musterprotokoll". Create a company bank account, transfer the minimum amount of 1€ (plus the costs for founding, so you better transfer ~500€). This the fastest way and costs you together with an entry the commercial register (150€) around 500€ (300€ for the notary, depending on how many founders). This is followed up by stuff like "Körperschafts Anmeldung @Finanzamt", "Gewerbeamtanmeldung" (25€) and "IHK Gebühren" (80€/yr) and "VBG Anmeldung" (costs vary by the amount of employed persons). Don't forget the contract for the CEO as employed person.
As already told by others: You need to have a native speaker on your side to deal with the bureaucracy. Is this a startup friendly environment? Does it sound like? Hell no.
On the other hand: You can live in Berlin really cheap if you want to. Infrastructure is great and you don't need a car. There are a lot of meetups and startup events to get around people like yourself. Programmers aren't payed that well. Fundraising is a matter of network and traction like, i'd say, everywhere else.
Moreover, yes in the UK you can register an Ltd. entirely online. However, you still need to complete the required legal paperwork and register with Her Majesty's.
In recent years I have interviewed as a Software Engineer and Senior Product Manager at a couple startups in Germany. However, after receiving a couple offers, I found that the costs of living in Germany as an American (US Taxes, Visa, USD -> Euro exchange rate) were not sufficiently covered by the salaries, even on the high end.
For American companies looking to hire talent in Germany, I have heard that it is was less competitive, lower cost per engineer and the talent top notch.
he needed to have earned a shit ton of money (I think right now around 120K? a year for the need to pay taxes in US, if he not a CEO it is quit hard to get that payment even if you are a pro programmer)
Are there any good resources people have used for finding freelance work internationally or that are even specific to Berlin/ Germany?
While I am not a freelancer, I happen to work with one (he's mostly doing Django for my startup). He's originally from London, happy to connect you if you'd like to get first hand experience.
You can find contact details on my profile page.
If you've pulled off a similar feat in the past, do you have any language learning tips?
"Shoot for the stars, so if you fall you land on a cloud. - Kanye West"
Assuming that you are an American with little or no prior language learning experience, you may want to adjust your expectations.
It seems like you will have ~75 hours (5 months at 0.5 hours per day) of study by the time you leave. That should get you to a basic beginner level (CEFR A1) -- maybe A2 is you are really good. 5 months of full time study might get you to a minimal level of professional competence (CEFR B2).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_European_Framework_of_R...
Of course, if you speak a language that is linguistically closer to German and/or if you have learned foreign languages before, then the expected time to reach a level can be shortened.
Regardless, I encourage you to keep your expectations reasonable.
If you have any questions, I will be glad to answer. This is an area in which I have quite a bit of theoretical and practical knowledge.
The CEFR seems like a great reference point though that I wasn't aware of so that could be a great more objective measure.
We're hoping to add a few shows/ podcasts to our regime this summer to get our ears more accustomed.
Try to focus on shows/podcasts that target children and/or teens -- the language will be more at your level. There may be more slang, but that will be relatively simple to navigate via various language forums.
Once your ear gets tuned to listening to native-speed German, then you can move on to more adult-oriented topics (start with simple, fun stuff and then move on to material that covers "real" topics).
That's at least what is helping me with Swedish.
Realistically if you want to get to at least a B2 level you are going to need much more than 15-30 min daily, even more because you aren't immersed in the culture and German is, frankly speaking, a quite hard language to learn. Sentence structure looks quite foreign if you only know English, grammar is complex, you have 3 different genders, etc.
Not trying to discourage you, much the opposite, go harder and you can do it but be realistic about it.
Berlin is certainly the best place to found in startup in Germany. The ecosystem is huge and a large portion of people are from other countries, thus it is very international (and english speaking).
Of course there is a lot bureaucracy in getting the company started, but you are not the first one to do that and there are people helping you. German tax law is complicated, thus it is definitely worth hiring an accountant to do all the paper work for you (if you run a proper business with customers, not just a stealth startup). We did some price comparison, in particular for lawyers to draft some contracts, which revealed a huge difference (range between 100 - 350 euros/h) and helped us save a lot of money (we even got a fixed price). Same for tax accountants. I strongly suggest picking small offices, not the ones with fancy offices in expensive locations. You'll pay for that and the service is almost identical.
Depending on the legal entity you choose (UG, GmbH, ...) the costs vary. GmbH are most common and have a good reputation, but are expensive if you have multiple owners. Also you need to invest at least 25k upfront (therefore the good reputation). UGs are cheap and you can do business as well, it just looks cheaper on your business card. Of course there is more to take into account, but that would lead too much into details.
To get more information about founding in Berlin, there are plenty of meetups for all kinds of topics and the state Berlin as well as the board of trade (IHK) are very interested in helping founders (they are their future members). There you'll find even more fairs and events for founders.
If taxes are mostly what matter to you, then there are probably better places to relocate to.
Also, consider what you are getting for your German taxes, and it may very well be worth it. If only the MUNI in San Francisco ran like the U-Bahn. You really have no reason to own a car in Germany.
Also note, as a Software Engineer living in California, your income tax (State and Federal) is probably close to 40%.
Is it just cities vs. small towns?
If (and only if) you're living in a city. A lot of people live in the villages surrounding a city and commute into the city center by car.
Berlin might be an exception here because Berlin is just so fucking huge that you cannot commute into the city center from outside the city within reasonable time.