Comment by maxxxxx | Hacker News Reader

Comment by maxxxxx | Hacker News Reader

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I think this is a symptom of a relatively peaceful and comfortable life with no bigger meaning. My parents lost their homes in WW2, my dad got shot twice, almost died, spent months eating moldy bread and list a lot of friends in war.

They have a totally different outlook on life and it's smaller crises.

I don't want to diminish the suffering of current generations but I think everyone looks for something that gives their life focus and if there is no big challenge then people will look for something that makes their life important. To me the last 30 years were sort of stale. The west has no big project to work on and for the not 0.1% life seems to stagnate. So people look for something else to give life meaning. This can be religion or watching scary news and having anxiety over non issues.

Not sure what the solution is but I think somehow people must have a mission in life and the feeling they are going somewhere. Without that anxiety and other psychological problems develop.

I just finished listening Joe Rogan's podcast with Sebastian Jurgen [1] where they talked about humanity's need to be involved in society in order to feel happy. While they talked Jurgen mentioned something interesting that I've never heard before and don't know if true or not. He said that the survivors of The Blitz in some weird way missed the time that they spent hiding in the subway tunnels of London. Similarly, many veterans missed the combat after arriving back home and settling back into normal life. The obviously didn't miss the horrors. They missed the comradery. They missed the purpose they had. Their lives were all of a sudden critical to their own survival and the survival of others. And I too believe that our often sedentary way of life is the reason why we fall into depression and anxiety. We are starved for deeper meaning.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4KiOECVGLg

You'll see the same trends in software. The healthy greenfield projects and disruptive startups share cultures of competitive individuals united by a greater fight, but the real challenge is adapting the culture to slower growth or steady-state maintenance... the faster the change the harder it gets.

America's is a young nation that has been constantly growing and fighting for much of hour history, we have never sat still for long enough to develop a more mature unifying ethos. Our culture is crumbling because it's at odds with the world we now live in.

Just wanted to say thank you for sharing this episode, what Sebastian discussed had really resonated with me. I am fortunate enough to live a pretty comfortable life, but can't help but notice the psychological effects that it has on me. Some of his points gave me a deeper insight into what I may be feeling, and it was quite intoxicating to discover that :)

You're welcome! It was a quite fascinating discovery for me as well. It's amazing where we are as humanity. Yet sad that we're so comfortable that it's literally making us insane.

This resonates with me. I would like to add age element. When I was younger learning to a ride a bike was an all consuming objective and a big achievement. I didn't need an alarm to wake up to go try riding again. This was followed by the different big schools, football matches against what always seemed were bigger boys ... Each one all consuming.

Being a middle class grown up is not inspiring. Work, code, moderate exercise (no more football), meetings, dinner, pay bond, repeat. Its been pretty much the same for the last 15 years in my case.

> Being a middle class grown up is not inspiring. Work, code, moderate exercise (no more football), meetings, dinner, pay bond, repeat. Its been pretty much the same for the last 15 years in my case.

I'm only in my late 20s, and I have a friend group that I gather is unusually social, but I sense this type of malaise in my friends too.

I don't understand it at all! I have personal projects in fields I'm no good at, I play and write music, I play intramural sports, I'm learning another language, I read voraciously, I periodically take sabbaticals to do extended travel... My problem is that there aren't enough hours in a year. I can't personally relate to the notion that life is unchallenging, and I would like to understand it. Sure, unlike in school, stimulation won't force itself on you ad mandatory, but that seems like a weak complaint.

One of the only explanations I have for it is that working too much leaves people too mentally exhausted to do much else with their time. If I was stuck with 40 hrs/wk + 2 wks vacation a year I would be pretty miserable, and it occurs to me that this is something I had to recognize and take action on personally. And note that I'm not talking about lower-income folk, for whom "work less, make less" may be unrealistic. As you mentioned, we're talking about middle class or higher.

I've heard that other industries can be far less flexible in terms of how accepting they are of unconventional schedules like time off on between work. Does that fully explain the mismatch you're describing between "I feel unstimulated and yet don't have stimulating hobbies while also having the extra resources to buy the extra time in which to do these hobbies"?

Sorry if this is sort of rambling, but it's something I've been wondering about for at least a few years. I used to think I was odd for not being cut out for the de jure work schedule of the US (not even talking about extra work), but it seems far more universal, even if people won't admit it to themselves and thus do something about it.

Your rant is justified and I will take it as wake up call. I am 41, played rugby until I was 30. Now I have a bond, child and in Africa you can't exactly pick and chose your job. There is a post below that captures my sentiments, the cost of living is high. All manner of taxes, interest on bond repayments, utilities like cable, school fees. I cannot take any more time off work or take sabbaticals. Yes I diligently read every post on passive income. Wealth as in number of days you can survive without a salary the deciding factor in staying put. I have a good job and mostly like it but honestly I will not be waking up with same vigor I did in my youth.

Final thought, the source of my anxiety right now is that it is 10pm and I need to go sleep to be fresh for my Monday morning project update meeting. A meeting where I will have to answer pointy haired boss (Dilbert) style questions.

Edit: grammar

If I was stuck with 40 hrs/wk + 2 wks vacation a year I would be pretty miserable, and it occurs to me that this is something I had to recognize and take action on personally.

Well don't keep us in suspense, what'd you do about this?

The initial way that I solved it was periodic, extended sabbaticals (the first one was 15 mos, but that's obviously a little extreme: I like taking 4-6 mos off between jobs). Since then, I've moved to smaller companies that are more conducive to healthier work schedules. I gather that the marginal sale of an hour of labor isn't perfectly efficient, but fundamentally you are still selling hours of labor and there should be some point between 0 and 40 that an employer would want to buy for some value between 0 and $[full salary]. If you can imagine making 20% less without being horribly financially insecure, then trading that top 20% for something that you consider worth it should be doable. This is obviously more feasible with smaller companies, where the cost of managing custom employee contracts isn't infeasible and they're able to be more pragmatic about win-win situations. My current employer is getting someone of my skills for a steal, even if I'm not working a full 40, and I'm getting a work environment that's more than worth the lost salary.

In my current job, I make about 35% less than I did in my last job (incl. expected value of equity). This is probably an outlier due to various details of my career. But it's illustrative of how much I'm willing to walk the talk, since I was very clear on the reasons for the switch and decided that they were worth the cost to me.

I'm not suggesting that everyone has a magical dream job waiting for them at the perfect point on the salary/quality-of-life spectrum. I'm just saying that, at least among all the people I know, it's a lot more in your hands than a lot of people realize (with the caveat reiterated that some industries are just too slow and dumb collectively to treat workers as anything but inflexible cogs.

Can't speak for the OP, but what I did is I found me a job where I only work part-time. At the moment I'm working 30 hours / week, although I had it at 26 / week last year and found this to be optimal to be honest. I still get to do software engineering, which I love, but I also have enough time on my hands to... basically not feel stressed all the time. (I'm certainly not as active as my parent poster, but I try to be engaged in different activities as well).

I figured this out very early on in my work-life after falling into depression after my first work year, which prompted me to re-adjust some things in my life. After I got myself back together I looked for a job to get into it again and have been with my current company almost 3 years now.

EDIT: Oh, also where I'm from there's 5 mandatory vacation weeks per year, so that helps too. I still try to take all my overtime (which I do still accumulate! :)) in time- rather than money-compensation though.

It seems like many people have a natural drive that frequently goes wasted in modern society. I wonder how we could use this drive allowing people to be happier and also benefit society in the process.

Agreed, it seems harder to mobilize people in times of peace than in times of war. As an African, things were much clearer when it was a case of fighting colonialism. Now that we are "free" there isn't much to inspire us and keep us on the same page. We caught up in mindless politicking. Not having a cause or something to look forward to is a source of anxiety for me. The moment I am caught up in something new. Building a hydroponic garden, planning journey home then all else falls aside. I don't even read HN during those times when I am occupied.

Don't just look at the big stuff. Look at the everyday environment.

I've had -- partially bad luck; partially trying to accomodate bad advice from authority figures -- a horrible time trying to achieve simply a quiet living space. And a peaceful work environment.

It's not "big, dramatic stuff", but it has dragged on me, day in, day out.

Jobs used to be more secure. Neighbors, even if they were jerks, didn't have so many instruments with which to be so loud. And neighborhoods tended to have more cohesion, including allies when you needed to deal with the jerks.

A lot of people are not being shot at. They are just being chronically, highly stressed. In everyday ways that add up.

P.S. Yes, definitely a U.S. perspective. I'd say "first world", but an increasing portion of the U.S. is actually in the process of leaving the first world, if it ever was in it.

But, there is a level of social isolation here, and a lack of a sense of allies and someone who "has your back", even if at the same time someone else is trying to "take you out".

I guess I can't really compare. I don't have the experience. But, for a lot of people in the U.S., the everyday stuff is plenty stressful. And, it never goes away.

> But, there is a level of social isolation here, and a lack of a sense of allies and someone who "has your back", even if at the same time someone else is trying to "take you out".

This nails it I think - which then creates a myriad of social issues that end up being a feedback loop. I do also strongly feel the US "suburban" style of living is a large driver of this. The more I travel and the more places I experience I've come to the conclusion that density matters. A lot.

Even small towns were dense walkable communities in many ways until recently. The forced day to day social interactions naturally built up social cohesion and trust - and those cannot be replaced by scheduled human engagement.

The lack of "community" in the US is quite concerning. There are many reasons, but being locked into various boxes (house, car, cube/office) through pretty much 100% of your day has to add up. The natural ebb and flow of a socially vibrant neighborhood just is nonexistent in I'd posit the extreme majority of the US.

> The more I travel and the more places I experience I've come to the conclusion that density matters. A lot

I live in an 8-storey high building in an Eastern European capital, and about a couple of hours ago my gf called me telling me she had gotten stuck in the elevator. I was still at work, my work is 20 minutes by foot from home, but not 5 minutes pass and my gf calls me again telling me that a neighbor had helped her get out of the elevator. So, now I know that at least one of my neighbors (whom I don't even know) would be kind enough to get me out of a stuck elevator if I'd ever need it. Also, the small talk you usually do from time to time with your neighbors helps a lot when you're living life as a single person, had I lived in a suburb instead of a very dense neighborhood after my divorce I would have had an even worse depression.

> Neighbors, even if they were jerks, didn't have so many instruments with which to be so loud.

This, I think, is under-recognized. People with phones, cheap stereos, and small portable speakers, have made many places that used to be quiet into noisy areas. Worst is when they are all competing with each other to hear their own music.

I'm sympathetic to your pov, but those big traumatic events likely left huge scars on the psyche of the previous generations. The PTSD was not being diagnosed at the time.

Big struggle may not be the recipe for mental health.

Totally agree. Many WW2 probably had serious PTSD. My point is that people who haven't gone though serious struggle tend to "sweat the small stuff". When I hear people being crazy angry and depressed about the Trump election it seems it me that they are looking for a mission in life. Modern corporate life doesn't offer a meaningful mission so they go overboard with politics or something else really not that important.

Exactly, except it's just as important.

You know, there were probably a lot of Germans in 1930 going overboard with politics, yet Hitler got elected.

Bad politics was bad politics back then, and it's bad now, and it's good that there are people trying to lift the quality and substance of political discourse. Even if it means spending weeks debunking clueless, loud and aggressive ignoramuses; going to rallies, writing to reps and senators and so on.

Maybe, as the folks back then weren't too effective, the folks nowadays might be not very effective either, but that doesn't mean the problems are less important.

For example, there are more people now that in the 1940s, and a lot more pollution, and so more people die thanks to pollution than back then, so if you can persuade others to help curb pollution, you help saving millions of people. The same thing goes for other aspects of life.

And yes, people are bad at appreciating the paperpusher numbercruncher aspect of change, and naturally feel the awe and the epicness of a world war.

And the same way a war affects millions a financial crisis, a flood or drought, or an epidemic does too, yet one is a lot more palpable, with good and bad actors, with bad guys to shoot at.

Another interesting aspect is how people treat refugees and civilians (interment of Japanese, sending back Cubans, now the handling of Syrians) which again is a lot less glorious than a world war, but potentially (and likely) affects a lot more people.

To me the current political debate in the US is just manufactured theater to keep the people busy arguing about unimportant things. No real issues are being discussed, no path forward for the country. It's just "You are bad. No, YOU are bad". I have no idea what the Democrats stand for otherwise than maintaining the status quo and the Republicans just want to make sure that the upper class gets richer. And the electoral system doesn't allow anyone with new ideas to come up.

Well, yes, if you watch "news".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fKsBj2M-T8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pS4x8hXQ5c

But there are real issues voted on. And even if there's no clear path forward, it's important to not go backward!

> It's just "You are bad. No, YOU are bad"

And? It's how ideas are criticized - ideally, by pointing out the errors in them.

If someone uses ad hominem arguments, maybe try to find better people to listen to? (Economists, sociologists, policy scholars?)

> And the electoral system doesn't allow anyone with new ideas to come up.

Then don't spend time on those things, spend time on election reform, look at where those are, look at interesting things that matter and that help predict the world.

https://www.top500.org/news/can-a-supercomputing-algorithm-k...

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-the-best-supreme-co...

So, the debate is what you make it to be.

Unimportant things like climate change and affordable health care? You can't say that now that Trump is President and is making important changes that Clinton wouldn't have made.

Humanity has had big big challenges up until maybe about the industrial revolution. Then we had us a couple of wars to deal with. The post-war period has been a new era of human evolution, one in which survival is a given for most people, expansion through conquer and war is mostly out of the question, and even scientific discovery - yes - has seemed to plateau in recent decades. Not to say all of these things affect some people, but each of these is diminished on a population scale. With industrial agriculture there is a lot of food to go around, nuclear weapons make total war a thing of the past, and the low-hanging fruit of scientific endeavor has been picked. Major advances come from large teams with big funding, much more than, say, the enlightenment or the industrial revolution. Most people alive today in first world nations face no existential threat or deep motivation for betterment, not like in the past history of humanity. In the history of humans, this is not normal, we're built for striving and surviving, and fighting each other for territory and resources. We have been honed through thousands of generations to be ambitious and cut-throat and daring. But the future calls for a different ethos, one of efficiency and moderation. One where economies cannot grow indefinitely, and wars cannot be waged. Where people can find meaning outside of labor, as pretty soon we won't need human labor - physical or mental. The more likely scenario is that we will see a regression before that future hits us, the expansionary drive is too ingrained in the human psyche and societal norms. War will come, sooner or later, and give a 'purpose' to the world. And I fear this is unavoidable.

They lived through fear during the war, lessening the anxiety they likely felt pre-war. Things look an awful lot like the relatively peaceful and comfortable times before the last wars, and the military advances are terrifying since then. This is where anxiety thrives.

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