Comment by wpietri | Hacker News Reader

Comment by wpietri | Hacker News Reader

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Again, you have generated and extraordinary amount of opinion given that this post was not for you and given your ignorance of the topic.

I understand you don't see why these things are problems. What is extraordinary to me is that you have confused "I don't see X" with "X does not exist". And then gone on to blather extensively based on this confusion.

I get it. You're a paragon of self control. Congrats. Have a cookie. But you're playing this game at the lowest difficulty setting: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-th...

Other things become relevant when you play it on different settings.

> but if somebody is drunk, whether they're a guy or a girl - or whether the gender ratio at my workplace is 60:40 or 80:20 is irrelevant

Irrelevant to you, as a financially comfortable white man. It is not irrelevant to other people. You don't understand why, which is fine.

But ignorantly proclaiming on the topic is not fine. Aggressive dismissal of the concerns of other people is part of why large parts of humanity are underrepresented in tech.

You are part of the problem. Right here, right now. So ask yourself: what will you do differently next time?

>this post was not for you

>your ignorance of the topic

>blather extensively

>Have a cookie.

>Irrelevant to you, as a financially comfortable white man.

>ignorantly proclaiming on the topic is not fine

>You are part of the problem

This isn't meaningful discussion. It's just insults, assumptions, and aggressive dismissal of another person's opinion.

The guy aggressively jumped into a discussion addressed to women in tech, dismissing the premise in a way that's actively harmful to underrepresented minorities in tech. The first time I was reasonably polite. The second time, frank.

Exactly none of those statements is a personal insult. Some are assumptions, but all are reasonable. If I got something wrong, he can correct me.

I will note that you are also a white dude, and have spent a lot of energy on "aggressive dismissal" of people's concerns here. So apparently you're fine with the behavior as long as it reinforces the status quo.

Whether sexism is acceptable in the workplace is not up for discussion. So the parent is totally right to educate the grandparent about this. You may not like the tone, but substantively wpietri is right on the mark.

I don't think either of them are addressing whether sexism is acceptable in the workplace. They're talking about whether a "fun" culture is an indicator of sexism in the workplace. If you have another interpretation and the time to break it down, I'm always interested in understanding things from other people's perspectives.

Victorhooi is arguing that alcohol culture is not exclusive to men, but according to personal preference. Wpietri is saying that it can be a strong indicator of a place being a dumpster fire. The discussion is fine and I think both have valid points.

Incorrect tone can cause people to become completely unperceptive to an argument. It's important to not be hostile when looking to change views. A collaborative approach is often the most successful. Belittling people for their opinions doesn't achieve anything besides pissing them off.

>While I agree with X, we should also consider Y and Z because words.

Sure. The issue here isn't whether a fun culture is always a problem. Sometimes a foosball table is just a foosball table. The issue here is that victorhooi is totally oblivious to how sexism manifests itself in the workplace, and wpietri is responding to this obliviousness.

There is no nice or polite way to tell somebody "this is sexist, cut it out", because when sexism (or racism, ableism, other bigotry) is pointed out people tend to react in a really defensive manner. They deny, deflect, lash out, or just change the subject. When the core message is a personal criticism then softer language doesn't make it go down easier. When it comes to these subjects, when no feelings are hurt no minds are changed. Nobody should be unnecessarily rude, of course, but "unnecessarily" is the pivotal word here.

victorhooi turns the discussion towards his own experiences about alcohol, fun culture, ping pong, and extrapolates from there. The problem is that his experiences are not representative of what women in tech experience at all, and it's particularly clueless for a guy to respond in a thread asking for advice from women in tech about what _his_ experiences are and how everything is totally fine (for him). Every woman in tech has personally experienced or personally knows somebody who has faced sexual harassment or other gender based discrimination. Every woman in tech who changes jobs has to ensure that the new work environment is not a dumpster fire. And if you're unlucky your boss may still decide on hit on you 4 months after you've bought a house in the new city. This practically never happens to men, so when victorhoi repeatedly claims that "gender or alcohol [...] flows both ways" or that "it's just a matter of self-control" he seems totally unware of the gendered problems that are so prevalent. He dismisses it outright "you get the occasional stupid comment" (when you don't drink), as if that is the extent of the problem! He doesn't get that it's not about him. He doesn't get that his experiences are not representative for women in tech.

You obviously have a bone to pick, and a lot of unresolved bitterness (which could be perfectly normal/expected, if you've had a lot of bad experiences/issues in the past as a woman). Hopefully though, you can see past that - I think we want the same goals.

My point isn't that sexism isn't there, or that I'm oblivious to how it manifests in the workplace - I'm not sure how you got that from my comment?

My point is that holding up totems as the single cause of sexism doesn't work. I feel that people just need to call it out when it happens, and we need to remember that ultimately, we are responsible for our actions.

Whatever happened to taking responsibility for your action?

If a man is sexist, or an ase - it's not simply because of the fact they drink alcohol or that they play console games - they can't use that as an excuse.

It's something they chose to do, or say etc.

It's right when people call it out - obviously there's a way to do that, that helps everybody. (see Donglegate for how not* to do it - it's really sad looking at the way that played out - because honestly, it could have actually gone the other way).

Also - your last paragraph is, I feel, quite...bitter?

I (and many of my colleagues) constantly try to encourage woman into tech. Heck, even my daughter - I'd love her to follow my footsteps into tech =). (My wife may have other ideas).

However, describing tech for woman as a dumpster fire, and saying that every woman has personally faced experiences of sexual harassment...that's pretty wow. Maybe I am really oblivious as you say, but my last workplace and current workplace had heaps of highly-respected women in technical roles, who seemed to be having a blast.

Yes, I have worked in workplaces where it wasn't the case and women were under-represented, but I see the tide on that turning.

Thank you. I really appreciate this, it's super helpful to see this kind of breakdown.

Today's society has lost the ability to debate.

Compared to what :)? I agree that snark like that is more likely to alienate then convict, but it is not modern invention.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2017/06/05/jordan_pe...

"They believe that since you don't have an individual identity, your fundamental identity is group fostered, and that means that you're basically an exemplar of your race.

Hence, white privilege. Or you're an exemplar of your gender, or your sex, or your ethnicity, or you're an exemplar of however you can be classified so that you are placed in the position of a victim against the oppressor."

Thay is not different from past or traditional view of neither gender nor race.

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