Hacker News Reader

Comment by msmm | Hacker News Reader

The pay is like half of the SV, and then around half of it you pay in taxes for mediocre services. You have to buy private health insurance on to of that if you don't want to die in public health sector. Then you have infestation of all sorts of terrorists and other low lifes, censorship and political correctness. If you happen to be in the UK your internet is also monitored. Europe is a socialist police state. No thanks.

View on HN

That's not a very nice or accurate comment. Sure, SV salaries are higher but it's bound to be like that. Even without taking into account the SV monoculture and exchange rate differences the cost of living in SV is far far far higher than a lot of Europe.

Plus, you know, culture. Lots of culture.

The CoL in Europe isn't much cheaper if you take in the large tech hubs.

People also underestimate the value of being able to occomulate wealth which is nearly impossible in Europe.

Salaries are much lower, taxation is much higher, bonuses are a joke and real equity is almost unheard of.

Startups in Europe also tend to pay less than the established businesses which makes it much harder for them to attract good talent other than the original founders and fresh graduates. This also arguably extends to the tech sector at large if you are a developer you would be much better off working for a bank or any other financial institution, a consulting firm (esp big4) or in any other "non-tech" industry as the pay and the job security tends to be much better.

This is pretty much the opposite of SV.

Yes, you are right about most things. I live in NL and just started as a software engineer this year. I make 45k. Probably a lot less than someone in the US with a similar position.

The story has 2 sides though: you have to pay a lot of things we in Europe take for granted. And you should include those payments in you calculations.

And most of the things like healthcare, depend on you having a job.

I will never be without healthcare. Education costs are €2000 a year for uni, free for anything below. Unemployment benefits for up to 3 years after losing my job. State pension when I retire. More personal freedoms. 30 vacations days + 10 national holidays. Etc...

Money isn't everything.

I would argue the American attitude is: Money is everything because with enough money you can have anything.

It's just a different perspective on life.

It's not about money it's about self reliance (responsibility) and agency.

I'm not an American I live and work in Europe.

Yes there are a lot of services but it's not a clear cut case for the upper middle class.

"Working rich" is a concept that isn't possible in Europe outside of upper management or self employed.

Yes we get healthcare albit everyone in their right mind who can afford it still gets private insurance.

Yes we get cheap education but then we also don't get to decide where to send our children to school and private schools in countries that still have them cost a nice sum.

Luxury is much harde to attain working in the Tech sector nice cars, houses taking a good vacation etc.

Take the example above 45K Euros with a tax rate of about 40% and 20% VAT. Your purchasing power at that point is lower than someone in the US who makes about 35-38K a year and gets medical coverage from their employer.

I agree about the pay and the hardship in attracting talent, to a degree. These are good points and a definite problem in the EU.

However, excluding London (which is a bubble in itself), the CoL at all major tech hubs (and all cities) in Europe is much less than SV. Check out some of the comments here for anecdotal evidence, or just compare the cost of housing online, in Berlin for example (one of the most expensive cities).

Taxes are higher, but perhaps it's an American thing to see taxes as the root of all evil. You get a lot for your taxes.

Can you elaborate on why accumulating wealth is nearly impossible? Do you mean just saving money?

CoL shouldn't be completely detached from your income a better metric would be your relative purchasing power which is going to be higher in SV.

After 10-15 years in SV it's not unheard off to accumulate wealth well north of 500K$, many people I know in the US I know have accumulated about 1M in total assets in the past 10 years or so. Compared that to Europe and it's a completely different picture.