Everywhere in the world salaries, rents and prices go hand in hand. Unless you're living on one side of a border and working on the other side (which is possible in EU) which allow you to game the system, rents and prices are based on supply and demand. Don't take it personally, but it does not make much sense to compare what you would get with a salary from one country while living in another country.
But ... it's not like low-skilled workers in SF are getting paid much either.
The average HN reader might be in a better negotiating position w.r.t. salaries in Tokyo
Some things to consider about Tokyo:
- No need for a car, insurance that comes with
- Your company will (in almost all cases) be paying for your daily transportation by car
- If you're willing to suffer in the morning with travel/take a bus to the train station, you have a range of prices for renting
- There are a lot of people living on low salaries, so there are a lot of services on the low end. 100 yen shops with high quality stuff, all things considered.
For 60,000 yen/month you can get 20m2 studio appartments (25-year-old buildings) within 15 minutes of stations like Nippori or Otsuka. If you follow the "1/3rd of salary" rule, it's reasonable if you're making a bit over minimum wage (not sure what the going rate for English teachers are)
SF is cherry picked, the most expensive place in the US. I live in Philadelphia and the commute time and cost is substantially lower. NYC would be the most appropriate comparison, and they get to work with nearly 20 minutes less commute.
I bring up commute because many people have long commutes because they simply cant afford to live closer.
Generally when the median is greater than the mean, it's because there's a long tail to the left dragging the mean down. I expect that the opposite is true: there is a long tail to the right, with a small number of people who have exceptionally long commutes.
So I'd expect the median to be lower, like it is for salaries.
There are a lot of people who do 90 minute+ commutes for sure. Even for relatively small commutes you end up with a fixed cost of about 20 minutes for just going to the station from your home or leaving to go to the office, so 30 minutes is good.
It's possible to live close to your office if you're willing to live far from trains a lot of the time though. Living 20 minutes from any station instead of 5 easily cuts 30% off the rent
...
If you strongly believe this is unlikely, name a neighborhood and I'll show you three apartment listings.
For larger families? I dunno. We're a family of 5 (1 in jr high, 2 in elementary) and really struggling to find a place to move up into from our current 2LDK. :(
I admit, we have a bunch of constraints, but I don't think they are too unusual. (want to be reasonably near to work, school, and in-laws)
[1] For those that don't know, apartments here are typically listed by number of rooms, plus if the space includes an "L" living room, "D" dining area, "K" kitchen. So "1K" would be a single room with a place to cook. 2DK would be 2 rooms, with an eating area and a kitchen.
I don't believe it is unlikely but I'd like to take you up on your services. ;)
Got anything for the Harajuku or Akihabara districts? You seem to be more knowledgeable on how/where to search for this info and I'm a bit lost. (Still have over a year to properly research this stuff on my own, but I really want to move to near one of those two districts next year.)
Has prices softened that much since then?
http://suumo.jp/jj/chintai/ichiran/FR301FC001/?ar=030&bs=040...
For folks who don't have the local color here: if you're willing to live in apartments sized for middle class Japanese folks, and that is a big if for many foreigners, Tokyo can be impressively inexpensive to live in. Shibuya is a very desirable and relatively centrally located neighborhood; think "SOMA" or, hmm, I don't know Manhattan that well but somewhere in Midtown maybe?
(If you optimize for commute down to the minute, prestige of building, or living space, you can end up paying a lot of money. Though even in an apartment that scores well on all three my rent is less than the median in SF.)
All salaries include public Social Security.
Engineers that'd get $300k comp offers from big5 tech here would make $80k--$150k, provided you go to a web/mobile company. If you go to an older industry you will make less.
Various finance firms on the east coast can also send recruiting e-mails, touting their >400K comp. I think the key to that one is having work experience in an investment bank, as well as at AMAPGOFA.
?
I guess Friends wouldn't have been that uplifting if it was shot in Rosses' cramped, leaky studio apartment.
That bit with the hanukkah armadillo and superman is still one of the funniest things I've seen on TV.
I'd love to move back to my native NYC, but I've been priced out forever, as the cliche goes. There are entry level people earning more than I earn as an 18-year veteran in Tokyo.
Not true. There's huge variations in OECD countries. Here's a graph showing house price to income ratio. I know this intimately because I live on the far left :'(
https://www.imf.org/external/research/housing/images/priceto...
Check r/London and look for topics like "how much of your salary are you paying on your rent?". I've seen a lot of people spending 50% up to 70% of their salary on rent.
It will move up to close to 70% if my roommate moves out in August. It's a little shocking to consider that I would actually consider paying that much to stay here. I seem to really like Midtown Atlanta that much.
Once you get used to it, it's not that bad. Out of all the things you could spend your money on, having an utterly sweet pad in the dead middle of town isn't the worst thing.
It does appear to be an optimal combination for both good wages and low cost of living in my experience having traveled and lived extensively all over the world.
The single caveat I'd make on saying this is that the way that I prefer to live might be uniquely suited to Tokyo, and uniquely unsuited to Sydney. That being; I hate commuting, I want somewhere small and comfortable but otherwise as cheap as possible to live, but as close to work as possible so I can just walk to and from every day. In Sydney working in the CBD this means you'll be stuck with some status signalling lifestyle apartment coupled with the already significant premium on rentals in general which is applicable to all Sydney real estate, and it's stupidly expensive (average 2250 - 2500. You could probably get away with a rundown roach palace for a little cheaper, but the floor on Sydney rentals in my experience is just absurdly high.
By comparison I got a no frills apartment that is perfectly useful, comfortable and serviceable within 300 meters walk to my office in Shibuya no problem at all, 1100 USD per month, and everything else on top of that with the bountiful microwave dinners, amazon, and roadside eating joints by the dozen, extremely fast and cheap internet (gigabit for < 40 USD pm) doesn't increase the price by much at all.
I did not speak any Japanese at all at the time I started, and I am slowly learning it now but don't have a lot of time to dedicate to the project. I intend to gain fluency in it eventually. Unlike many of the places in the world I've lived, I would say if you intend to comfortably exist here long term, you will need to learn the language both spoken and written. It's not like a lot of places these days where English is almost an official second language or there's extensive proficiency amongst the local population.
This is my first and only time working in Japan so I have no basis for comparison to other companies here. My impression of the culture is there can be an overemphasis on hours worked rather than output produced and the quality thereof, but they're conscious that is an issue at least where I work and they're mindful of it and try to address it. They also have things that seem strange to me as a foreigner but I am more prone to just accepting and trying to do things their way (when in rome).
All in all, I'm finding it pretty good, it definitely helps that this particular field has pretty much devoured all my energy, life and thinking since I really immersed myself in it a few years ago, so working in a global hub central location where it's really having an explosive impact on a core related piece of infrastructure is pretty much a dream job for me.
There is no tip in Japan. And 8 USD for Ramen is super expensive, in Kansai you can get ramen for 5 USD or even less. Ramen should not cost that much anyway, it's super fast to make and ingredients are super cheap too.
See http://www.seriouseats.com/2012/02/how-to-make-tonkotsu-rame...
On the other hand, most of it is presentation and perception. You can get a $5 burger as well as find a $20 burger --if you search hard enough you can find a $5 with the same quality as the $20 version --so it's not always exoticism that does the trick.
To put it another way, you can do a high end anything restaurant, but takeaway makes far more sense in a high traffic location with massive rush hours, high rents and little available space, no foot traffic after 5PM and no access after 8PM.
Enough Korean people have come to Atlanta that there is a restaurant there aimed specifically at giving Koreans a taste of home, that taste involved a completely different cuisine from both American Chinese food and Chinese Chinese food.
It wasn't Golden Buddha I hope? That place is what celebrity chef David Chang probably would charmingly refer to as "bad" Chinese food that is addictive, and it's decided not nice by any stretch of the imagination. As an out of town Atlanta Korean I'm still clueless about what most Koreans know here ITP and what's around Duluth.
Yes, they absolutely loved the Jajangmyeon. (짜장면 for those curious) I couldn't eat it.
Now that I'm thinking about it, they didn't really describe Chinese food as upscale. But more as like a treat. We're super spoiled here in America with all these different kinds of cuisines.
ITP the best Chinese restaurant IMO is Chong Qing Hot Pot in Chamblee. We had good meals at Northern China Eatery on Buford Highway, but Chong Qing is way better.
I'll edit this with the best Korean restaurant when I can get back with my roomie on where it moved to. -- edit, sorry he doesn't know himself. But the original restaurant we used to go to is called Yet Tuh. The owner got fed up with the small space and moved the staff out to the sticks.
Actually you find both: really cheap and really expensive ones. It's not about the country of origin that much.
There's commoditized Japanese in the US, and there is probably premium Thai and Vietnamese.
Ramen's becoming more popular now but it seems as if there isn't a lot of demand between 50 cent package of Ramen noodles and $15-20 quality Ramen place.
Well, some people find Olive Garden as good as a high end restaurant in Rome, so for them it's "comparable".
Nongshim Shin Black Noodle Soup, Spicy, 4.58 (Pack of 10) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B017IRZLKQ/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apap_nz6...
Theoretically there's no reason why a quality broth can't be reduced to powder form and used with instant ramen.
> Theoretically there's no reason why a quality broth can't be reduced to powder form and used with instant ramen.
I mean .. there really are. There are all sorts of aromatics and fats that can't be properly powderized. Note that, e.g., coffee is way better in fresh form than powder form, as are a huge multitude of foods.
I think the biggest issue is that dried animal fats will significantly reduce the shelf life.
I've tried a bunch of Nongshim stuff (including that one). I think it's the best instant ramen I've tried (although I've heard there's better stuff available in Asia), but it doesn't compare to the real stuff, even if you add things to it.
Good ramen isn't that cheap or easy to prepare but the time and ingredients required to make the broth can be spread over a lot of servings.
In Sydney Australia ramen can be AUD$8-20 which is about USD$6-15. In China it's about 25-60CNY or USD$3.6-9.
For some reason ramen shops outside Japan likes to advertise about their noodles.
As for your comment about China you have to differentiate between Japanese ramen and Chinese.
Not when it's good ramen. I've bought far more expensive ramen in the US, Europe, Singapore, and other places...
"What owning a ramen restaurant in Japan is like"
Peogrammers can work remotely and make western wages in Tokyo for western companies though, and some friends have very high leverage this way.
Of course, there are things that are cheaper. If you live as Japanese as you can, you can save some money. But rent prices are very high for a normal Japanese worker. As some people here already said salaries are very low.
Average income per age range[1]: 20s:348万円 (~34k) 30s:458万円 (~45k) 40s:586万円 (~58k) 50s:721万円 (~71k)
My ~55m2 room costs about ~1800$ without electricity etc. Since the owner recently changed for new people the price went up to ~2000$ Given it's a modern 'mansion' (apartment) with nice extras, in a very good location it's still cheap (wondering why every day.) I heard SF is crazy expensive, but that's a different problem. Most people here, even in IT jobs get about 2000 dollar per month. So where can they live? They can live in some 30 years old very tiny apartment or live outside of Tokyo and drive in 1 hour or more every day. Even if you live 30 minutes away by train, most trains coming from affordable areas are packed and you have to queue up to get into one, which can extend the commute time to an hour or more[2]. If you want to go to work by car be ready to pay around 300$ per month for a parking space.
Then, say you start a family. 55m2 won't cut it anymore. 80-100m2? Very few places. Very expensive. Most rooms here are between 20-35m2 made for singles.
Anyway, this maybe sounded negative but I love this city. All things considered, it's awesome and comfortable to live here.
[1] https://doda.jp/guide/heikin/2014/syokusyu/it/ [2] Source: co-worker
You're right, it's crazy how low professional salaries are, but the city is so affordable with such a wide range of housing options that you can be a nail stylist and still live in the most central neighborhoods (granted, that stylist would probably have to move farther out to raise a family).
The beer is almost 8-10x more expensive compared to where I come from though.
You are right that most people here live and raise kids in smaller apartments. But just because this is the status quo and you don't 'need' more I wouldn't say it's good. Why should your kid have to live in a 5sqm room? I wouldn't be able to justify that for myself and would have to move outside. I think it's the mentality here, singles, for example, spend most time at work or similar so they don't mind having a tiny, affordable home. Also most Japanese (there are exceptions) normally don't invite many people to their home etc.
My rent is comparable to what I paid in USD in various areas of the SF peninsula. However, move-in costs were outrageous. I have a pet, so that increases it some, but everything here for rent is a multiplier, ie.:
- I had to put 3x monthly rent down up front for security deposits (due to pet, average is 2 months)
- Pay the first two months rent up front
- Pay the real estate agency that helps you find an apartment (pretty much required) one month rent
- Pay a "guarantor" company half a month's rent for some kind of renter's insurance I guess
I'm lucky that I didn't have to pay "key money" for this apartment, which is effectively a bribe to the owner that you'll never see back. I also won't ever see my real estate fee or guarantor money again, and it's common to lose at least 1 month deposit due to "move out cleaning fees" (regardless if you keep the place spotless).If you know prices in the bay area, paying 6.5X that rent up front is pretty painful, and not being able to recoup 2.5X your rent is also kind of rough.
I'm lucky that my salary didn't shift too much (aside from currency exchange) when I moved here, but generally salaries are much lower across the board in Japan, even Tokyo.
Food is similarly priced here as SF, depending on what you choose to eat. Some meals can be considered cheap (gyudon, ramen, etc) but you have to remember portion sizes tend to be different and meals don't typically include drinks here. It's also really nice that tipping is not part of Japanese culture, since I personally find it adds a lot to the total cost when you eat out a lot (like my fat ass).
Now, to add a huge caveat to all this, you can live cheaper in Tokyo if you choose to. When I moved here, I chose to keep my lifestyle roughly the same (though I didn't buy another car or motorcycle, so there's some savings). First, if you want to live more cheaply, don't bring a pet. You can also downgrade your lifestyle a fair bit which is an interesting difference from SF. In SF, even a small studio can go for a lot of $$$, but here, you can find small studios for $500-$1500USD relatively easily (whether they accept foreigners or not is a different issue).
TL;DR: Can definitely be cheaper depending on what sacrifices you're willing to make. With no sacrifices, about the same as SF, except up front costs.
- first month's rent
- security deposit worth a month's rent
- 15% brokers fee
Admittedly, NYC is terrible with its broker stuff but switching over to Tokyo wouldn't have been that dramatic if you were coming from this coast instead.
I thought Japan was a non-tipping culture?
Then you toss banks on top and things really spiral out of control.
there is only so much land
There is way more land than needed, if only we build cities dense enough. Have a look at e.g. Hong Kong's density: The Kwun Tong district in HK has 57250 persons per square kilometre [1] which, assuming the world is 7*10^9, means we could house them on a mere 122270 m^2 (about 1/5th of Texas).[1] https://www.gov.hk/en/about/abouthk/factsheets/docs/populati...
In the absence of regulations limiting building height, I think 70% is unlikely to become the norm. Just physically it seems likely that you could add 1000 square feet on top of a building for something that works out to less than 10 years worth of full-time labor. Assuming you amortize that over a 30 year mortgage, that's well under 50%.
I could see a future in which land use regulations drive up the cost of housing to 70% of income. Also a future in which people work half the number of hours they do today and spend 70% of their income on housing, which is less of a nightmare scenario.
There is a point where an additional floor becomes too expensive for the math to ever work out, but it seems to me the population of the Earth would have to more than triple for it to become as bad as you suggest.
70% is unlikely considering you still have to pay utilities, bills and food on top. That would leave nothing at the end of the month.
P.S. You'll note that expenses can be a massive percentage of "lower" rents. For instance, a studio in a small city can be $500 a month, as much as the car expenses you need to go to work.
You'd get the same thing for around €500 in European cities, and it's so much that you already need your parents to help you.
/s