Comment by zyxzevn | Hacker News Reader

Comment by zyxzevn | Hacker News Reader

Parent Full thread

Everything about this is related to the immigration problem in Europe. I'll try to formulate this as neutral as possible.

The immigration problem is seen as huge in Europe, and also in the US. Therefore people choose candidates that are against more immigrations, or at least recognize this as a problem.

People are worried for economic reasons, integration-problems, violence, attack on women, terrorists. There are many reports, and people do not know who to trust, especially with the terrorists.

What would any of you think when 500 people from a far away country were placed near your house? You would experience it as a some kind of problem.

If we look back in history, we can see that a part of these (mostly male) immigrants are coming from Syria (some say only 25%). Syria is currently in a war with ISIS and Al Qaida. And at the same time Syria is under attack from "moderate rebels" that are supported by the US (continuing a policy against Syria). Also Kurds are fighting, and Turkey, sometimes against each other. And many more states.

It is a big mess. Most people do not see US meddling as a solution. Peace is usually achieved by NOT attacking people living in another country.

Tried to make it so simple that politicians can understand it ;-)

>What would any of you think when 500 people from a far away country were placed near your house? You would experience it as a some kind of problem.

What a pathetic attempt at a dog-whistle. If you want to start writing anti-immigrant comments just do it, don't doll it up in this bullshit pseudo pragmatism. Not like other people are letting it stop them.

It didn't read as a dog-whistle to me. It's a scenario that's happening across Europe.

The mass import of different cultures is a real problem because it erodes trust and cohesion within communities affected.

To put it bluntly, multiculturalism isn't all its cracked up to be. A trickle of immigrants from, for example, east Asia is clearly enriching. The same cannot be said for a mass influx from a culture that holds opposing values. Continuing to deny this will only result in more Brexit-like events.

> The mass import of different cultures is a real problem because it erodes trust and cohesion within communities affected

This is not a new idea: the US said this about the Irish in the early 20th century, but now everyone is proud of their Irish heritage and loves St. Patrick's day - Irish culture has been fully embraced.

The same thing happened a little while later for the Italians, and then for the Asians (which you've called 'enriching', a contemporary attitude if I've ever heard one). Pizza, Asian food, St. Paddy's and Tacos are quintessentially American: American culture is multiculturalism.

Multiculturalism only works if the contained cultures respect each other, share enough common ground and obey the same laws.

Please consider my reply to another comment:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14283767

Do you have any basis for these otherwise baseless allegations? Major cities are filled with immigrants and cultures from all over the world, and are the engines of advanced economies. New York is one very successful example; London is another.

In my experience, it's the people with the least experience with immigrants who have the most objection to immigration.

> A trickle of immigrants from, for example, east Asia is clearly enriching

I don't know what country you are in, but if you are in the West than East Asian nations certainly do not share your 'values'. Visit one of those countries some time.

But this comment is outright hateful ethnic stereotyping. One essential Western value is to judge people by their actions individuals, not by the color of their skin, their nationality, their sexual preference, etc. Another is liberty, which doesn't mean liberty to do what someone else happens to like.

Every generation of immigrants has the same things said about them: They don't integrate, they speak their own language, they don't share our values, etc. etc. But their kids grow up natives. How sad that you have so little confidence in those values that you don't think they will win over these immigrants just like they've won over every generation of immigrants before them.

> In my experience, it's the people with the least experience with immigrants who have the most objection to immigration.

Same in Germany. The most persistent protests against immigration are in Saxony, where only 3.0% of the population are foreigners (compared to 9.4% national average).

Source: https://www.destatis.de/DE/ZahlenFakten/GesellschaftStaat/Be... (I'm looking at the columns specifically titled "Foreigner". "German with migration background" includes additional immigrants that gained German citizenship, but also a whole slew of people who were displaced after WW2 when the German borders were redrawn.)

When the story is about the non far-right candidate being hacked and somebody decides to use that as a pretext for a rant about the ills of mass migration, it's not even as subtle as a dog whistle...

Non far-right?

Lets be clear about what these candidates are. Macron is a neoliberal globalist elitist. Economically, he may be more right than Le Pen.

Le Pen is a populist authoritarian nationalist. Certainly not far-right.

I note you failed to answer the question.

There are multiple reasons to be against miss-migration, most of them pragmatic.

> most of them pragmatic

I'm not sure how you can count them and say 'most'. Certainly a lot of racism is involved. I've rarely heard many economic analyses or real evidence that provide pragmatic reasons, but that doesn't rule them out.

I don't care what race you are (I'm about 3, near as I can tell), but if you think you can control what the women in your life dress like, whether they drive, or if they can live with a man before having some religious ceremony, I'm going to have a cultural problem with inculcation.

Then perhaps you should welcome the immigrants so that the women will be free. Do you object to immigration by white-skinned males who abuse and/or control women? What about those from cultures where there is widespread racism? What about from countries where tax evasion or heavy drinking is widespread, or where the crime rate is high? Should National Front supporters from France be banned from other countries? Many cultures and people have histories that I disagree with, including my own. There are lots of behaviors I disagree with, including yours.

But many of our beliefs about them are stereotypes, and one of our values is that individuals should be judged by their actions, not their skin color or nationality.

Also, my preferences are not a basis for law, unless they do significant harm, and not for excluding immigrants. I am not the judge of others; freedom means freedom for others to do things that you don't like - otherwise it's meaningless.

Why do you think you have the right to decide immigration policy for other people? It doesn't just affect you - it effects everyone. People have the right to let in whoever they want into their own countries. They can turn people away for a good reason, a bad reason, or no reason at all.

Also if you think the west is one of the more racist or sexist place in the world you are naive in the extreme. The immigration policies of "far right" European parties are completely mainstream in East Asia. If a party advocated for a similar immigration policy to say, Chinas, they'd be labelled as Nazis and lynched by a diversity mob.

I think zyxzevn is being unfaily treated for this one statement:

You would experience it as a some kind of problem.

Everything else seems like a plausible characterization of facts.

What a pathetic attempt at a dog-whistle. If you want to start calling people racist because you don't like what they wrote just do it, don't doll it up in this bullshit pseudo indignation. Not like other people are letting it stop them.

> The immigration problem is seen as huge ... in the US. Therefore people choose candidates that are against more immigrations

That's not true. The candidate that supported immigrants and immigration received more votes in the U.S.; an entire major party is supportive of immigration, as are some members of the other party.

> What would any of you think when 500 people from a far away country were placed near your house? You would experience it as a some kind of problem.

I would not; I would be thrilled for them, proud of our country and community, and I would find out how I could help them. Many others have the same reactions. The U.S., for example, has been welcoming immigrants for its entire history - almost every American is one or is descended from them. Canada was very welcoming of them - look at their pointed response to Trump's immigration policies.

> If we look back in history, we can see that a part of these (mostly male) immigrants are coming from Syria

I don't see how this is related to acceptance of immigrants.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com