Comment by erikbye | Hacker News Reader

Comment by erikbye | Hacker News Reader

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> So I share your sentiment. I still open > > Photoshop/Lightroom on my Windows laptop when I need them (although lately I've been trying to use DarkTable and RawTherapee for some projects) but yes, Gimp is far from being a high end tool. Illustrator still kills Inkscape (I worked with a hardcore OSS guy who said it's just a matter of training, what you're use to and what you start with. I could tell he'd never done any real graphical editing work ever).

Could you expound on what DarkTable, GIMP, and Inkscape needs to be more comparable to the Windows/Mac alternatives? What are the crucial, missing features?

As a hobbyist photographer and video editor, who has used Lightroom and Photoshop extensively, I find that I manage fine with alternatives available on Linux.

> But who is working on it? Obviously not you. Obviously not me. It's a lot of work. I've looked at code here and there and often said "..huh..that's not has bad as I..oh no wait..yea..yea it is..I wish I had the time to work on this."

I am working on it. A lot of us are. But we need to know what to implement. We need bug reports and feature requests. DarkTable alone has almost 20 000 commits and 200 contributors. The Linux kernel has about a 1000 contributors for every release.

Does it look like we're not working on it?

And money? ... Well, yes, most HN commenters seem to be very money-centered. After all, it's a site about starting new crappy companies, pushing shitty, useless products noone needs. They don't give a shit what they partake in, as long as the paycheck is right.

But, nevermind that.

A lot of open source contributors are paid full time to do this. So you can work on open source 24/7 and get a fat paycheck, if that's your thing. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Then there are those who actually code because they like it, you know. Because it's their passion. They might endure a shitty job to make a living, but in a weekend they do 50 commits to open source projects.

Be a slave if you want, I choose not to. I work on whatever I want.

> Does it look like we're not working on it?

Frankly, yes.

I can't speak for the experience on linux, but on mac Inkscape needs to:

- Support high dpi displays

- It needs to scroll and zoom smoothly. (There's no reason for it to lag while scrolling and zooming on a modern computer. Every other app on my system manages it).

- It needs to use the operating system's menubar instead of xquartz.

- Use native controls for everything. That open/save dialog looks like something out of the 90's.

- It needs to support smooth scrolling.

That would be a start.

Ok. You are talking about problems with the software on a proprietary system... Sorry, I don't support closed platforms.

These problems do not exist on the Linux version.

That's a bit of a problem.

Proprietary OS users are going to judge Inkscape (or Gimp, or any other Free Software) from what they see on their platform. If it lags and doesn't support High DPI on their platform, they're going to assume the same is true of the GNU/Linux version.

Some users won't switch because of this faulty assumption.

Native UI… while there is little point it catering to users who won't switch anyway, it will still reflect badly on the application. Widgets that look like "something out of the 90's" will say to the user "I am an old unmaintained app" whether that's true or not. Users are highly influenced by an application's look.

To me, cross-platform is not the holy grail--Linux is fragmented enough as it is. And certainly not to a platform like Apple's. Porting free software to a walled garden is grotesque.

I think focus and efforts should be directed at making good software for Linux. And I do not think that porting OSS and free software to closed systems is a good strategy for converting users.

Users switch from macOS and Windows to Linux for all kinds of reasons, but there is no point in trying to "lure" them in any way. It will be of own volition.

It's not just a matter of luring people in. Some people who want to switch to GNU/Linux won't because "Inkscape sucks" or something. I bet Gimp and Libre Office have similar issues. MacOS users are especially problematic because they're so vocal.

That said, I think this is but a small part of the problem. The bigger enemies are the bundling of Windows with new computer (no separate purchase of the OS), and windows-only games. They're the main reasons behind the proprietary hegemony on the desktop.

When so few desktop computer run Linux, half-heartedly supporting Windows and MacOS comes of as a bit haughty. But if Free platforms are the norm, supporting the proprietary ones at all will actually sound generous.

FWIW, HiDPI support does not work on Linux either. All icons, color palette, custom cursors are about half the size they should be on my 4k monitor.

Scrolling is pretty choppy and it doesn't support smooth/inertial scrolling.

So 3/5 of his listed issues exist on the Linux version.

Is this wayland/X what desktop environment? What gpu? What driver?

Same experience in both Wayland and X11. Intel built-in graphics, i915 driver.

So is your gpu just too slow for 4k?

You asked what needed to happen. They told you.

Even if you, yourself don't want to do it, the attitude you've taken here is exactly the attitude which drives people away from OSS.

I don't see people driven away from OSS. Rather I see even big corporations embrace it. Even Microsoft. And look at the explosion of public projects with Github.

You're both right.

The problem is, his side is "winning". Linux is quite hostile to proprietary software, so not that many people will use Linux since apps > OS. So if OSS doesn't push for better apps even on proprietary systems, it won't even get out of this catch 22.

Linux is big and unspecific. But if we talk about a user count of Linux on the desktop vs OS X/macOS on the desktop, then Linux is not far behind, according to various statistics. Linux numbers are actually a lot higher than the recorded stats, as those are just based on web browser information. Many Linux users do not even use a browser that is counted in these statistics.

People often seem to forget just how small Apple's desktop marketshare is.

I'm a Windows user primarily. Which also falls into the proprietary category. And its desktop market share is far from small :)

erikbye never indicated that he cares whether OSS gets out of the catch 22. I develop a Linux distribution and I know that I do not care. I care about my experience and other users' experiences, but not people who use MacOS. I value software freedom of the things I work on much more than a Mac user.

I don't even see the catch 22. There are more than enough Linux users for a thriving ecosystem, has been for many years, and it's only growing.

Like I said in a comment above, Apple's desktop share is incredibly small percentage wise, but more than big enough for them to sell desktop hardware.

Now hardware vendors also offer Linux (Dell, System76).

Linux/Unix absolutely crushes it when it comes to server/infrastructure, academia, and research. Who cares if official numbers call desktop marketshare of 2% or 5%.

> I develop a Linux distribution and I know that I do not care.

Well, you should care. You should care when your clients or friends send you a file in a format that you can't open or transform properly on Linux. When you want to print something and your printer doesn't have drivers for it. When you want to play an AAA game and it's not available for Linux. Etc., etc.

My friends send me e-mails and messages, which I read with open source software, with links to news articles that I read with open source software. I message with open-source apps using open standards.

I manage (and share with my peers!) the books for an organization with GNUCash.

I collaborate on and write papers with LaTeX, write my code in languages with open standards, use primarily open source compilers, and run my code on Linux cluster which use open-standard parallel communication APIs and open-source implementations.

I do not play video games.

My office printer is plug and play with Linux/CUPS.

All done on my trusty custom linux distro (Exherbo) for years. Oh, and I haven't reinstalled since 2010 but I am running the most recent open-source GNU/Linux software.

Maybe my life and my needs don't match others', but then again maybe erikbye's don't either. Anyway, that is why I do not care about more people using Linux. If anything, more Linux users have made the internet a less useful resource for helpful Linux knowledge.

Why should I care?

P.S. my phone is another story, but I expect different things in that space.

Then consider yourself lucky.

And you probably shouldn't care, except for altruistic reasons :)

Why is the lack of certain AAA games held more against Linux than macOS?

Linux has 1950+ games on GOG and 6500+ on Steam. Some of them AAA.

When it comes to file formats, I'm sure there are certain formats that poses a problem, but at least not the most commonly file formats exchanged. Like Microsoft Office formats; LibreOffice opens pptx, ppt, xls, xlsx, docx, doc, docm, etc.

Inkscape as mentioned above, opens Adobe illustrator files.

Both GIMP and Krita opens Photoshop files. Krita perhaps being the most appealing alternative to Photoshop users (UI-wise).

And normally, if you have clients, they don't arbitrarily send you arbitrary files in random formats. You have agreed on a workflow and file type.

This type of reaction is one of the reasons why everyone that cares about good UI/UX is on either OS X or Windows.

> Well, yes, most HN commenters seem to be very money-centered. After all, it's a site about starting new crappy companies, pushing shitty, useless products noone needs.

Whoa.

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