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Comment by arwhatever | Hacker News Reader

I just returned from a 2 week driving trip through Germany and vastly preferred driving there to driving in the U.S. The "always pass on the left and never on the right" seemed like it led to more systematic and predictable behaviors, and also tremendously reduced the competitiveness of the driving experience as compared to the U.S.

It might all be cultural differences though. I noticed drivers seemed more attentive and never used their phones (unless completely stopped in traffic jams), whereas here in the U.S. it is extremely common to have drivers piddling in the left lane and absolutely oblivious to the goings on around them.

The only stressor I could see from driving on the autobahn was easily overcome - before passing someone on the left, just be sure to check really, really far back towards the horizon to make sure one one is coming.

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I agree with all of this. Driving in the US is very unpredictable-- from the road surface to the drivers. In Germany, the road surface is great, and the flow of traffic is easy to understand. Sure, sometimes someone will flash their lights at you because you're only doing 130 in the passing lane, but you just pull over and they go by and everything's fine.

That said, if you do have an accident at those speeds... The one wreck I saw looked like a tin can had met a hydraulic press.

Wait, german highways are frequently concrete highways with junctions. Not so great??

Much better than the average concrete US interstate. ;-)

Also, speed limits on the Autobahn are lower in construction zones, urban areas with more traffic, and anywhere the roads are not that great (still good by Jersey Turnpike standards).

The stretches with no speed limit are really well maintained.

Huh. Fascinating how different experiences can be: I found the roadtrip through northeast US I made a few years ago one of the most relaxing freeway driving experiences ever.

Sure, as an Austrian I prefer driving on German autobahns as well (due to better perceived discipline), but the US trip was something else entirely - and I've come to think that it's maybe because almost every car has cruise control.

It's not even the speed differences between different lanes, but staying in lane, setting CC and not having to correct it for a really long time is not something I was used to, and going 600km or more a day left me far less tired than over here.

EDIT: Maybe there are intra-US differences as well? Since most here seem to talk about California...

Depends where in the US. You're unlikely to set your cruise control and leave it in a big city, unless it's late night/early morning.

Outside of the big cities, it can be much more relaxing. I drove across the mid-west and did the same as you. Drive at 70-80 mph and not take the cruise control off for hours.

Theoretically "always pass on the left" is a rule in the US too, it's just a rule that is not consistently observed.

I have noticed a tendency for many slow, timid appearing drivers to prefer to campout in the left lane because it gives them the least amount of interaction with other highway traffic.

On a typical 3-lane highway, the right lane will have many big trucks, plus merging traffic entering and exiting constantly. The center lane puts them right in the middle of all the chaos, getting passed by other traffic regularly on both sides. In the left lane they can set their cruise control to 5mph below the limit and squat.

Even when there are lulls in the amount of traffic, many times I have approached this type of driver from behind in the left lane, paused to see if they would move over for me to pass, and they almost never do.

Disclaimer: I like to drive 5-10mph over the speed limit :)

>5mph below limit, left lane

Horrifying! :) But yes, the left lane is much nicer to camp out in on, say, a long commute - as long as you can handle maintaining the speed.

I live in the Dallas area and the lanes usually seem to be, from right to left: "the limit", "+5-10” and "+10-15". 15mph over is my cutoff, more or less, so I keep an eye on the mirror and try to shift over if someone is clearly coming up fast. Besides, don't want anyone tailgating me at those speeds tbh.

Does get a bit aggravating when what I consider "safe following distance at speed" is considered by the driver behind me as "this dumb econo-box being slow" and they whip around me. Doubly so when all it achieves is the two of us swapping places because there are no open avenues forward, lol. I'd have given it to him if there was one.

But "everyone else is a bad driver" will always be with us (myself no exception) so what can you do but grin and turn the music up.

That's because too many people drive in the left lane all the time. In my commute, traffic gets inverted where the left lane becomes clogged with people not going fast enough and to get anywhere requires passing on the right.

I can appreciate not wanting to go back and forth between say the middle lane and left lane all the time. I just wish people could figure out they are holding up traffic and get out of the way for a minute or two every now and then.

> I can appreciate not wanting to go back and forth between say the middle lane and left lane all the time.

That is about as self centered one can be in trafic. In reality, they are endangering themself and everybody else near them.

Lane changes are dangerous too. I have no real statistics to back me up, but most of the signs of accidents that I see appear to stem from lane change collision.

I base that on sideways skid marks and wall impact.

Why?

If I do a steady 140 km/h in the middle lane, as mostly everybody else (here in germany), then why am I endangering anybody, if I just stay there? There is still the left lane for the faster ones and the right for the slower. (in the 3 lane scenario)

Sitting in the middle lane with adequate speed is fine when there is heavy and/or slower trafic in the right lane. The grandparent talks about sitting in the leftmost lane because it's more convient, rather than sitting in the middle lane and using the left lane when passing.

Eh, I'd have to agree that staying in the middle lane and going the speed limit is the smarter thing to do. There are too many badly-designed on-ramps and people that don't understand how merging works for staying in the right lane to be practical, in most cases.

It's about sitting in the right most lane, because it's more convient, and not because you're passing.

In the 3 US states I've lived in, always pass on the left has been a "rule of thumb" but has never been illegal. So long as the right lane is a legal travel lane.

Huh. I thought it was a law in CA, which it technically is... but with exceptions for highways with two or more lanes in each direction.

It's illegal here in Massachusetts.

It's legal on highways, e.g. "any roadway on which traffic is restricted to one direction of movement"

https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXIV/Ch...

I lived in Massachusetts for 3 years and routinely passed people on the right, sometimes even in the breakdown lane if it was open for traffic.

> The "always pass on the left and never on the right" seemed like it led to more systematic and predictable behaviors, and also tremendously reduced the competitiveness of the driving experience as compared to the U.S.

Isn't that a thing in the U.S. as well? At least where I'm from (the northeast), passing someone on the right generally gets you a loud honk on the horn and occasionally a flip-off.

The problem with "pass on the left" is that it requires to drivers to consciously treat the left lane as a passing-only lane. That doesn't happen in California. The left lane in California is the "let me zone out and ignore all these cars passing me" lane.

I disagree with strictfp that "staying to the right" creates unnecessary traffic dynamics. What happens in California is worse. Someone holds up the left lane, so all the faster cars will pile up on the right lane and try to sneak in front of the slow car, but inevitably they'll cut someone off and set off a chain reaction of braking for everyone that was patiently queued up in the left lane.

(Granted on two-lane I-5 there are some legitimate a reason for this: the right lane is used heavily by trucks, so the road wears down quicker and becomes rougher in the right lane than the left. Naturally people gravitate towards smoother asphalt. And if you just passed a truck a few minutes back and are gonna pass another one again, why not just stay in this lane?)

This only happens on poorly designed roads that cannot handle their traffic flow. Most people in most places will obey the left passing rule only so long as there are enough lanes that the traffic fits in lanes - 1 so one can always be open.

Since the US infrastructure system is a colossal piece of shit, highways built 40 years ago still stand exactly as they were then today having to accommodate multiple times more traffic than they were ever meant to. This breaks down the road rules when its bumper to bumper and every lane is backed up.

The scenario illustrated in the GP happens because the the rightmost lane is subject to merging traffic from onramps and offramps, and also tends to be the lane where trucks and vehicles obeying the speed limit (or both) congregate.

Meanwhile, the leftmost lane attracts people wanting to drive faster than traffic, the people who just want to get one car ahead, as well as the people who just want to drive without having to let cars in all the time.

If there's only two lanes -- like on most rural interstates -- and sufficient volume exists to prevent the left lane from actually clearing out cars, this creates a tragedy-of-commons situation in the left lane where there's more empty space in the right lane than in the left. A subset of people will then use the empty slots in the right lane to try to get ahead, making the situation even riskier.

But this poster's right; the root cause is not enough lanes to ensure a high level-of-service.

Totally agree, but the US is huge!

It would be much more informational to take into account things like average number of cars traveling between various locations, number of lanes between said locations, residential density...

Another issue is mobility in America. It's not uncommon for people to move across the country for work. So cities like Portland or Austin don't expect the sudden boom in population and increased traffic that entails.

> Most people in most places will obey the left passing rule only so long as there are enough lanes that the traffic fits in lanes - 1 so one can always be open.

By that logic, that would mean at 11pm at night on US-101 between SF and San Jose, I shouldn't need to pass anyone on the right, but I guarantee you there's always drivers lingering in the left-most lane.

If the road is usually congested, frequent traversers of that road will just get in the habit of staying left until they are near their destination. I do it on PA-22 all the time (albeit not in a condition where people need to pass me on the right), even when the traffic is light, because its what people expect behavior wise on that road.

highway 5 between sf and la is notorious for this. it's a 2-lane highway and the right lane is filled with trucks, so all cars go in the left lane. passing is some crazy game where you try to get around slow cars in the left lane while trying not to get stuck behind a truck. it's just awful. rush hour makes it even worse.

It depends on the state. In many states passing on the right is illegal and considered rude, but California is a notable exception. Also, while there is a law here in CA that slower traffic should stay out of the left lane, I think it is more of a recommendation -- I can't recall ever seeing it enforced. I think most drivers make some effort to follow it, but not to the extent that people do on the east coast.

In most states (all?) "passing on the right" does not mean passing someone on the right in a regular traffic lane.

It refers to passing people while in an exit-only lane, turn-only lane, shoulder, etc.

In Massachusetts, passing on the right on a divided highway is legal. I'd argue that in a lot of cases, it's the fault of drivers on the left not moving out of their lane. But you also have situations where, with lanes of steady traffic, the right lane just gets moving faster.

Now, yes, you get situations where people veer from lane to lane because the overall flow of traffic isn't fast enough for their tastes. But, especially on three lane each direction roads, you get cars and trucks that don't want to deal with merging traffic at exits just sitting in the middle.

I believe that there it's ruled so that you have to use the rightmost lane that's free - so if it's possible to pass someone on the right, then it means that they're not in a position to honk and flip off because they're driving wrong themselves.

> Isn't that a thing in the U.S. as well?

Yes, but not normally observed in more densely populated areas. In Los Angeles, for example, it's use any lane you can to pass. I've personally witnessed people, who were driving slower than the flow of traffic, move all the way to the left to "get out of the way" of other drivers. It's well-intentioned, though poor understanding.

Licensing needs to be more rigorous, but many cities rely very heavily on commuting without a proper public transportation infrastructure in place.

The left lane is also, almost universally, a "I expect to speed" lane. When I need to use the left lane to pass and I'm driving the speed limit, I'm almost always tailgated.

Well at least you know why they're tailgating you.

It is a law everywhere that you must pass on the left. Slower traffic keep right. It is a cultural issue.

I think "Slower traffic keep right" is part of the problem, nobody wants to think of themselves as "slower". The signs should read "Left lane for passing only" or similar.

Also, I pass people on the right all the time, but I blame them for it. :-) If people don't want to be passed on the right, they shouldn't drive on the left. Simple enough.

At least here, the signs say "State law: Left lane for passing only." Slower drivers never enter the left lane, and the right lane is consistently fast and accessible if you're willing to meet the speed requirements of going above the limit a bit.

Passing on right is legal on roads with two or more lanes going in the same direction.

Laws for passing on the left was intended for roads with one lane going in opposite directions.

Driving the speed limit is considered normal speed according to case law. Slow traffic is going 10 on a 25.

Anyone who hasn't driven in congested roadways like 880 or new jersey turnpike cannot understand that left lane as passing completely breaks down when you have too many cars and too many exits. We just have too many goddamn cars.

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