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Comment by jraines | Hacker News Reader

I wonder if commuting by BART constitutes a "good cause" w/r/t California's concealed-carry law. I doubt it, but it'd be kind of funny to hear a court say out loud that in Alameda County, "exposure to risk of coordinated gang train robbery" doesn't constitute a "non-mainstream circumstance" placing one in harm's way.

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Could a handgun really deter a crowd of 40 to 60 people? Especially if some might be packing heat themselves? Or could just overpower you regardless?

There's situations where concealed carry could help but I'm not sure if this case is one of them.

A train is probably the optimal situation for deterring a large group with only a handgun, assuming you have a chance to draw before they swarm you.

Long straight lines, plenty of bodies in a row, ~10-15 rounds, and you could probably cut that 60 number down into the 40's surprisingly quickly. Depends on how crowded the train is in general though.

And kill a couple of innocent commuters with your ricochets and misses. Or did you think that your ability to tell the 16 year old that wasn't part of it from the 16 year that was when you're in a hurry mowing people down was still functioning? Life isn't a FPS.

I hope that if I'm ever in the subway and it's robbed that you are not in the same car, same for any other dirty Harry wannabe's. Better to hand over my wallet and cell phone than to end up with a bullet from a well meaning bystander.

It's estimated that guns are used defensively (not necessarily fired) by private individuals hundreds of thousands of times per year in the US, and yet we don't see an epidemic of innocent bystanders being accidentally shot. Why do you think that might be? Could it be that your characterization of concealed carriers as "dirty Harry wannabe's" is wildly inaccurate?

Read that comment again: the guy is seriously considering going on a shooting spree with a train full of commuters and robbers. What do you think the chances are of that working out? Do you think this upstanding citizen and class-A marksman will be able to place '10 to 15 rounds' (his words, not mine) with the precision required not to injure anybody else?

http://americablog.com/2013/02/vigilante-walmart-shopper-ope...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3252074/Police-looki... (uk)

http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/264755/carjacking-gone-wrong...

http://www.masslive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2015/10/vigilantes...

How many links do you want?

Those were much less complex situations.

And you think putting all that in a crowded subway car is going to improve matters?

I don't think he was suggesting it would be a good idea to start unloading into the mob, only that it would be very effective in reducing the mob's numbers compared to other situations where the mob is more free to move around.

>How many links do you want?

Just 1, but this time to statistics. I didn't suggest no one has ever been hit accidentally in a defensive shooting, just that it's incredibly rare compared to the amount of times guns are used in self defense, and not worth fear mongering about by suggesting concealed carriers are dirty Harry wannabe's.

> And kill a couple of innocent commuters with your ricochets and misses.

Ever been in a situation where someone shoots at someone else? Ever been in a bar when you start hearing shots fired?

All it would take would be one gunshot and one person hitting the deck and it would be chaos. As soon as someone pulls a gun, people GTFO of that area. They don't continue to mind their own business or continue to try and rob someone, they're too busy trying to flee the scene and get to safety.

source: I've been in a packed bar twice when someone has pulled a handgun and started firing.

> A train is probably the optimal situation for deterring a large group with only a handgun, assuming you have a chance to draw before they swarm you.

It's ideal for deterring if you can draw before they enter. It's ideal for gunning down attackers (and, if you aren't an excellent shot, bystanders) in great number if you draw once they are on the train, but successful deterrence in that case requires no one to panic and fight when confronted in a crowded situation with limited exits, which is highly unreliable.

You seem to be thinking that mobs are rational, so that an optimal killing ground is also an optimal deterrence setting.

I should clarify, I wrote that comment with a fair amount of tongue in cheek.

However, I do want to make it clear that if you draw your concealed firearm, you do it with the intent to use it, not to brandish it as a form of deterrence. If there is any option on the table to avoid drawing, then you leave it in the holster.

I would not take part in an event where I had a >1/60 chance of being killed.

Sure, but you're not a reckless teen with an undeveloped sense of self-preservation.

Crowds scatter when a gun comes out. No one sticks around to find out if it is real, fake or the holder is actually going use it.

I think the counter is that when the crowd is the aggressor, you don't know if anyone in it has guns of their own. If they see you as a threat then they'd take you out in kind, and there's more of them.

Sounds better than doing nothing while hoping a mob stops beating your mother because she doesn't have anything to give them.

Does any transit have actual security we give them millions per year where I live and there's not a visible cop in sight ever unless they are parked in front of a busy station handing out fines.

If you're in a situation when the personal safety of you or someone else you're with is directly being compromised with physical assault, you'd better be fighting back with everything you've got, including your bare fists.

... maybe?

You should be taking the course of action that's most likely to lead to the best outcomes. If it's one-on-60, it's not clear to me that fighting back is that course of action. (I really don't know what is best in that situation.)

Inside a BART car, a crowd can't scatter, so you favor the other side of the fight or flight reflex.

> I wonder if commuting by BART constitutes a "good cause" w/r/t California's concealed-carry law.

Since the license is may-issue, it depends on the LEO you apply to. I was denied one on almost exactly these grounds. I told my local police chief that my business took me to high crime areas in San Francisco, and he said that wasn't good enough, and that I'd have to have evidence of a specific threat to my specific life to be considered for one.

I highly doubt that in California and SF in particular, with their strict gun laws, but I could be wrong.

These flash mob robberies are quite common on the east coast. I've heard about a number of them in Philadelphia on reddit where a group of 'youths' shows up and attacks people.

It's a surprisingly little reported on phenomenon. Yet it sounds quite psychologically jarring.

It doesn't get much more mainstream than "rides mass transit" in an urban area...

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