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those numbers are ridiculously low even if in US dollars as I assume they are. I don't put much stock in the StackOverflow survey.

Then put stock in a the words of a guy who has actually looked for employment in Canada, and after the election of Trump is very incentivized to take a positive view on moving to Canada: as far as I can tell from the salaries posted, I'd take about a 50% pay cut, and I wouldn't be able to afford a house (at least not in Vancouver). Drop me in, say, Kamloops for $65K/year and maybe I'd do it. But there are few, if any, software jobs in Kamloops, or Kelowna, or much anywhere else outside Vancouver.

The Club Penguin shutdown is a devastating blow to the Kelowna tech industry!

(seriously, their headquarters are there)

They didn't shut down the offices. They just moved to a mobile Club Penguin game instead.

The Okanagan is actually a great area to live in as far as tech goes in Canada.

That's interesting. I grew up around there and would definitely consider moving back one day to be around family.

What are the big tech names around there these days?

If salaries and housing prices in Canada were at all reasonable, I know many fellow Canadians would move back from the Bay area in an instant. Toronto is the other major tech center which is stupidly priced (hopefully the new govt measures slow things down). If you can speak french, consider Montreal.

Be mindful that there is (mostly) terrible weather everywhere in Canada except in Ontario/South BC(Vancouver)

"Less terrible" in Ontario, "not great" in BC

Depends on your definition of terrible, I suppose. I never feel more alive than when I go for a walk on a crisp, sunny -20 degree morning. I used to get mornings like that quite often in Ottawa, and I've missed them the past couple of years in Toronto.

If you can't speak French, move to Montreal anyway, like everyone else!

How about the Tri-Cities[1]? I have several friends who live there, seems like there are lots of tech jobs around.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tri-Cities_(Ontario)

Still very limited job opportunities compared to US tech hubs, but the cost of living is indeed not out of control.

The biggest problem there is you have to be OK living in a place like Waterloo, which is great if you like suburbs and want lots of space, not so great of you're into city living.

I live about 50 minutes from Cambridge/Waterloo/Kitchener. I'd totally move that way but my wife wants to stay close to her mom. If we made that move I'd be mortgage free after selling the Mississauga house for $200k more than the Guelph/Cambridge house would cost.

You might already use this site, but if not, definitely add it to your job search:

http://www.viatec.ca/jobs

I moved to Canada in 2005 or so. It set me back a little financially to wait for my visa and build up a credit profile here but 12 years later I think it's one of the best decisions I've ever made.

Would might net worth be slightly higher if I had stayed in the US? Yes, because I spent around $30k to get established (that was also a personal choice, I needed a break after a rough startup go between '98-2005.

I, too, like BC, but SW Ontario has more jobs.

Here's another source, Payscale.com:

Software engineer (Canada): $51,000 (C$70,000)

Software engineer (US): $80,825

The gap here is smaller ($30k vs. $50k) but still significant. And I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I'm more inclined to believe two surveys than a random person's claim.

[1] http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Job=Software_Engineer/Sa... [2] http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Engineer/Sa...

"The gap here is smaller ($30k vs. $50k) but still significant."

Healthcare, stability and democracy (sans land/house prices) make up a lot for this.

I don't see people flocking even after Trump won.

Why would you see them? Every move is different, and every person has their own motives. Often there are several. I'm not crazy about the direction the US is going, but regardless of the president I really like getting a month a year off.

>Why would you see them?

If any relevant number of people left you would know someone anecdotally at a minimum or be impacted in your tech company.

If this is anything like Brexit affecting London, I don't see lots of people leaving, I don't even notice any difference in my workplace, but I know someone living the UK every month to the point we're not even one year since the referendum and half my friends already left, one by one.

So, point is, you might not see a sudden movement but it might still be there.

>Healthcare, stability and democracy

Healthcare: We're talking about tech jobs. The healthcare coverage you will get from any tech company paying 6 figures is going to be essentially zero cost full coverage.

Stability: I have no idea what you are even talking about here, but it would be pretty hard to refer to the US as unstable from the perspective of someone working in a tech job. I suspect you pay too much attention to click-bait news and not enough talking to people that live here?

Democracy: again, what is this even referring to? The fact that the US is a republic? That's a pretty weak argument when comparing to a monarchy.

cough Trump cough

>> Healthcare: We're talking about tech jobs. The healthcare coverage you will get from any tech company paying 6 figures is going to be essentially zero cost full coverage.

This is not always the case, especially for small startups. I know engineers who make 6 figures in small startups and pay $1K a month for Health insurance for family of 2 young people.

>> Stability.

I think what OP refers to is stability of financial markets. Canada does not have major financial crisis every decade or so, that wipes out half of your 401K and real estate value.

>> Democracy: again, what is this even referring to? The fact that the US is a republic? That's a pretty weak argument when comparing to a monarchy.

Canada is not monarchy, it is "Federal parliamentary representative democracy under a constitutional monarchy", so essentially Canada has parliamentary form of government. Also per my understanding they do not have electoral college. US has wired and extremely complex election system. In last elections Democratic candidate received 3M more votes, yet she lost election and Republicans control both House and Senate. Similarly Al Gore lost elections to Bush.

Same thing can happen in a Canadian election: win without popular vote.

The healthcare coverage you will get from any tech company paying 6 figures is going to be essentially zero cost full coverage.

That's not been my experience. Microsoft used to offer a 100% plan, but that was unusual, and they dropped it a few years back. (Don't remember exactly when; I'd already left.) Google did not have a 100% plan, and no startup I've worked for has done better - in fact the startup I'm working for right now has no health plan at all.

Huh? I've never had a to pay a dollar in healthcare premiums at any employer. Granted, I've never worked for a tiny, tiny startup but even among white collar employers tech companies generally have top-notch health insurance.

I'm not talking about monthly premiums, I'm talking about what it costs when you actually need health care. How much is the deductible, what is the coinsurance rate, how steep are the co-pays, how weirdly restricted are the options for doctors, etc.? "Zero cost full coverage" sounds like the old Microsoft plan, where everything was paid for all the time. That defines "top notch" for me, and most health insurance plans I've experienced are nowhere close to being that good.

I think you're exaggerating the actual cost. I really don't think Google has a deductible plan, and I'd be surprised if the copays are more than $10 or $20. And remember, we're comparing this to Canada where you still have to pay for prescriptions (or at least a co-pay depending on your situation). Very, very few countries in the world actually cover 100% of healthcare costs.

All in all I don't really think it's a useful point of comparison when considering compensation between the two countries.

I wasn't trying to compare countries; I don't know anything about Canada's health care system. I'm just taking issue with the assertion that "the healthcare coverage you will get from any tech company paying 6 figures is going to be essentially zero cost full coverage", because that isn't, according to my experience and observation, actually true.

I think the democracy one might have been a shot at Trump and the broken process that allowed for his election.

US politics are pretty terrible.

You can't expect salaries to move (quickly) with currency fluctuations though. A couple years ago the US and Canadian dollars were at parity, and those $70k and $80k salaries would have still been about the same. So not much of a gap at all, especially considering healthcare costs. Yes, at the current exchange rate, Canadian salaries are quite a bit lower when priced in USD. Most day to day expenses are proportionally lower too. (Although not all. Things like electronics tend to be tied to the US price somewhat, although not 100%. Housing is also inflated, especially in places like Vancouver and Toronto, but that's largely a separate issue. You'll notice that, for example, you can buy cars cheaper in Canada right now. (In fact, if you're in the US shopping for a reasonably high-end car, you can almost certainly save money by importing one from Canada.))

So yeah, a lower dollar is somewhat bad for employees who see some of their costs go up (in CAD) due to the exchange rate, as well as those who are planning to spend their earnings in other countries. It's also bad for companies that need to import goods. Of course it's good for companies that export goods, especially those with costs (like employee salaries!) paid in CAD. If the dollar stays low (in a relative sense) for long enough, these things tend to be pulled back into equilibrium, but they never move as fast as currencies can fluctuate.

5 years ago when exchange rates were at parity, salaries were lower than they are now. You can't just take the present day $80k cad figure.

Marginally lower; certainly not proportionally to the difference in exchange rates. Also note the CAD figure was $70k.

I haven't researched the historical averages and correlated them with exchange rates, but I have been employing software developers in Canada for around 8 years now and so have kept current on market rates. In my experience, currency fluctuations, even on the order of 25-30%, have very little impact on market salaries.

Canada is a large country. $51k in Winnipeg might be a really nice salary. In the greater Toronto area that would be low.

large by land area. small by population. Who is hiring software developers in Winnipeg?

United States is a large country. $51k or $80k would be a nice salary in Arkansas. In the Bay Area it's low. What's your point?

The point is when people start talking about average salary.

I moved from Toronto To SF last year on a TN-Visa and the process was as described above. My salary doubled as well.

You mean it was "TN visas are instant and infinitely renewable", because that is absolutely false.

a) Engineering is covered by TN visas, but you have to have an actual engineering degree. Claim you're a software engineer and they have every right to deny the CS grad.

b) Programming is not covered. This is simple fact of NAFTA. It's a process where applicants are told to be super careful with the wording (sort of like saying you're "going to meetings" when crossing the border for work related things), and at most the actual allowance is for a software analyst that does a small amount of programming.

In the Trump era antagonism towards NAFTA, anyone who buys this notion that it's all automatic is fooling themselves. And once you have a TN visa, that is zero guarantee -- any single border guard can reject it, at any time.

>a) Engineering is covered by TN visas, but you have to have an actual engineering degree. Claim you're a software engineer and they have every right to deny the CS grad.

Not true at all. BSc in Computer Science is perfectly fine for Software Engineering jobs.

Look up NAFTA Appendix 1603.D.1

> b) Programming is not covered. This is simple fact of NAFTA. It's a process where applicants are told to be super careful with the wording (sort of like saying you're "going to meetings" when crossing the border for work related things), and at most the actual allowance is for a software analyst that does a small amount of programming.

That's true. But seriously is there anyone hiring "computer programmer" these days?

>>And once you have a TN visa, that is zero guarantee -- any single border guard can reject it, at any time.

True. Remember to carry all your paperwork with you whenever you cross the boarder.

Well you will have an I94 form and a slip/stamp indicating TN status in your Passport. Would be kind of ridiculous to be carrying your Degree, transcript of grades and documents from your employer every time you cross the border.

I do that. it's all it a neat folder, though I have not been required to show it to anyone yet

Umm .. I had one person give me a hard time when I was coming by car. Had to freakin drive back and get my diploma in the frame - next guy at the border literally waved me in.

Haha same here. I'm a TN-1 Software Engineer. I was told at LAX one time that the guy didn't like TNs and would send me to secondary. Talked him down eventually and gave him the papers he wanted but automatic is quite the overstatement. Definitely get a NEXUS card if you can.

> And I'm not trying to be argumentative, but your take on TN visas is extremely simplified. For instance software developers aren't actually allowed to have a TN visa, and instead you have to say that you're a "system analyst".

Small correction. "Software engineer" has been a valid TN category since the early (?) 90s.

Yes, I know several people from Mexico who have a TN visa. They just have to make sure their job title says "Engineer".

It's actually just "Engineer", which is pretty broad I guess. Does your diploma have to say anything about "Engineer"?