Hacker News Reader

Comment by hughes | Hacker News Reader

This article doesn't mention one of the major reasons for talent leaving Canada: if you work there, you need to stomach a 50% pay cut in average salaries vs the US. This is true pretty much across the board regardless of tech niche on the 2017 Stack Overflow Developer Survey[1]:

Machine learning specialist: US 108k, Canada 53k (49%)

Embedded applications/devices developer: US 100k, Canada 53k (53%)

Systems administrator: US 90k, Canda 49k (55%)

Doubling your salary by moving south across the border is a very tempting option, especially considering that NAFTA makes it extremely easy to do so. No need to wait for an H1-B, just show up at the border with job offer & credentials in hand, assuming you've graduated college. TN visas are instant and infinitely renewable.

[1] https://stackoverflow.com/insights/survey/2017#work-salaries...

View on HN

While I do have a grievance with a much lower pay ceiling across Canada, those numbers are ridiculously low even if in US dollars as I assume they are. I don't put much stock in the StackOverflow survey.

And I'm not trying to be argumentative, but your take on TN visas is extremely simplified. For instance software developers aren't actually allowed to have a TN visa, and instead you have to say that you're a "system analyst". Only they've actually started strictly demanding proof that you're an analyst and not a programmer, etc. Add that any single border crossing can lead to a revocation of your TN visa.

No thanks.

EDIT: Before more people reply with general comments, I am specifically talking about the salary claims for "ML Specialist" and embedded developers. Those numbers -- and I happen to have a good amount of reason to know this -- are ludicrously low. But yes, if you're a web developer, a generalist, etc, pay will be terrible in much of Canada, just as it's terrible in much of the US.

Here's another source, Payscale.com:

Software engineer (Canada): $51,000 (C$70,000)

Software engineer (US): $80,825

The gap here is smaller ($30k vs. $50k) but still significant. And I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I'm more inclined to believe two surveys than a random person's claim.

[1] http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Job=Software_Engineer/Sa... [2] http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Engineer/Sa...

"The gap here is smaller ($30k vs. $50k) but still significant."

Healthcare, stability and democracy (sans land/house prices) make up a lot for this.

I don't see people flocking even after Trump won.

Why would you see them? Every move is different, and every person has their own motives. Often there are several. I'm not crazy about the direction the US is going, but regardless of the president I really like getting a month a year off.

>Why would you see them?

If any relevant number of people left you would know someone anecdotally at a minimum or be impacted in your tech company.

If this is anything like Brexit affecting London, I don't see lots of people leaving, I don't even notice any difference in my workplace, but I know someone living the UK every month to the point we're not even one year since the referendum and half my friends already left, one by one.

So, point is, you might not see a sudden movement but it might still be there.

>Healthcare, stability and democracy

Healthcare: We're talking about tech jobs. The healthcare coverage you will get from any tech company paying 6 figures is going to be essentially zero cost full coverage.

Stability: I have no idea what you are even talking about here, but it would be pretty hard to refer to the US as unstable from the perspective of someone working in a tech job. I suspect you pay too much attention to click-bait news and not enough talking to people that live here?

Democracy: again, what is this even referring to? The fact that the US is a republic? That's a pretty weak argument when comparing to a monarchy.

cough Trump cough

>> Healthcare: We're talking about tech jobs. The healthcare coverage you will get from any tech company paying 6 figures is going to be essentially zero cost full coverage.

This is not always the case, especially for small startups. I know engineers who make 6 figures in small startups and pay $1K a month for Health insurance for family of 2 young people.

>> Stability.

I think what OP refers to is stability of financial markets. Canada does not have major financial crisis every decade or so, that wipes out half of your 401K and real estate value.

>> Democracy: again, what is this even referring to? The fact that the US is a republic? That's a pretty weak argument when comparing to a monarchy.

Canada is not monarchy, it is "Federal parliamentary representative democracy under a constitutional monarchy", so essentially Canada has parliamentary form of government. Also per my understanding they do not have electoral college. US has wired and extremely complex election system. In last elections Democratic candidate received 3M more votes, yet she lost election and Republicans control both House and Senate. Similarly Al Gore lost elections to Bush.

Same thing can happen in a Canadian election: win without popular vote.

The healthcare coverage you will get from any tech company paying 6 figures is going to be essentially zero cost full coverage.

That's not been my experience. Microsoft used to offer a 100% plan, but that was unusual, and they dropped it a few years back. (Don't remember exactly when; I'd already left.) Google did not have a 100% plan, and no startup I've worked for has done better - in fact the startup I'm working for right now has no health plan at all.

Huh? I've never had a to pay a dollar in healthcare premiums at any employer. Granted, I've never worked for a tiny, tiny startup but even among white collar employers tech companies generally have top-notch health insurance.

I'm not talking about monthly premiums, I'm talking about what it costs when you actually need health care. How much is the deductible, what is the coinsurance rate, how steep are the co-pays, how weirdly restricted are the options for doctors, etc.? "Zero cost full coverage" sounds like the old Microsoft plan, where everything was paid for all the time. That defines "top notch" for me, and most health insurance plans I've experienced are nowhere close to being that good.

I think you're exaggerating the actual cost. I really don't think Google has a deductible plan, and I'd be surprised if the copays are more than $10 or $20. And remember, we're comparing this to Canada where you still have to pay for prescriptions (or at least a co-pay depending on your situation). Very, very few countries in the world actually cover 100% of healthcare costs.

All in all I don't really think it's a useful point of comparison when considering compensation between the two countries.

I wasn't trying to compare countries; I don't know anything about Canada's health care system. I'm just taking issue with the assertion that "the healthcare coverage you will get from any tech company paying 6 figures is going to be essentially zero cost full coverage", because that isn't, according to my experience and observation, actually true.

I think the democracy one might have been a shot at Trump and the broken process that allowed for his election.

US politics are pretty terrible.

You can't expect salaries to move (quickly) with currency fluctuations though. A couple years ago the US and Canadian dollars were at parity, and those $70k and $80k salaries would have still been about the same. So not much of a gap at all, especially considering healthcare costs. Yes, at the current exchange rate, Canadian salaries are quite a bit lower when priced in USD. Most day to day expenses are proportionally lower too. (Although not all. Things like electronics tend to be tied to the US price somewhat, although not 100%. Housing is also inflated, especially in places like Vancouver and Toronto, but that's largely a separate issue. You'll notice that, for example, you can buy cars cheaper in Canada right now. (In fact, if you're in the US shopping for a reasonably high-end car, you can almost certainly save money by importing one from Canada.))

So yeah, a lower dollar is somewhat bad for employees who see some of their costs go up (in CAD) due to the exchange rate, as well as those who are planning to spend their earnings in other countries. It's also bad for companies that need to import goods. Of course it's good for companies that export goods, especially those with costs (like employee salaries!) paid in CAD. If the dollar stays low (in a relative sense) for long enough, these things tend to be pulled back into equilibrium, but they never move as fast as currencies can fluctuate.

5 years ago when exchange rates were at parity, salaries were lower than they are now. You can't just take the present day $80k cad figure.

Marginally lower; certainly not proportionally to the difference in exchange rates. Also note the CAD figure was $70k.

I haven't researched the historical averages and correlated them with exchange rates, but I have been employing software developers in Canada for around 8 years now and so have kept current on market rates. In my experience, currency fluctuations, even on the order of 25-30%, have very little impact on market salaries.

Canada is a large country. $51k in Winnipeg might be a really nice salary. In the greater Toronto area that would be low.

large by land area. small by population. Who is hiring software developers in Winnipeg?

United States is a large country. $51k or $80k would be a nice salary in Arkansas. In the Bay Area it's low. What's your point?

The point is when people start talking about average salary.

I moved from Toronto To SF last year on a TN-Visa and the process was as described above. My salary doubled as well.

You mean it was "TN visas are instant and infinitely renewable", because that is absolutely false.

a) Engineering is covered by TN visas, but you have to have an actual engineering degree. Claim you're a software engineer and they have every right to deny the CS grad.

b) Programming is not covered. This is simple fact of NAFTA. It's a process where applicants are told to be super careful with the wording (sort of like saying you're "going to meetings" when crossing the border for work related things), and at most the actual allowance is for a software analyst that does a small amount of programming.

In the Trump era antagonism towards NAFTA, anyone who buys this notion that it's all automatic is fooling themselves. And once you have a TN visa, that is zero guarantee -- any single border guard can reject it, at any time.

>a) Engineering is covered by TN visas, but you have to have an actual engineering degree. Claim you're a software engineer and they have every right to deny the CS grad.

Not true at all. BSc in Computer Science is perfectly fine for Software Engineering jobs.

Look up NAFTA Appendix 1603.D.1

> b) Programming is not covered. This is simple fact of NAFTA. It's a process where applicants are told to be super careful with the wording (sort of like saying you're "going to meetings" when crossing the border for work related things), and at most the actual allowance is for a software analyst that does a small amount of programming.

That's true. But seriously is there anyone hiring "computer programmer" these days?

>>And once you have a TN visa, that is zero guarantee -- any single border guard can reject it, at any time.

True. Remember to carry all your paperwork with you whenever you cross the boarder.

Well you will have an I94 form and a slip/stamp indicating TN status in your Passport. Would be kind of ridiculous to be carrying your Degree, transcript of grades and documents from your employer every time you cross the border.

I do that. it's all it a neat folder, though I have not been required to show it to anyone yet

Umm .. I had one person give me a hard time when I was coming by car. Had to freakin drive back and get my diploma in the frame - next guy at the border literally waved me in.

Haha same here. I'm a TN-1 Software Engineer. I was told at LAX one time that the guy didn't like TNs and would send me to secondary. Talked him down eventually and gave him the papers he wanted but automatic is quite the overstatement. Definitely get a NEXUS card if you can.

those numbers are ridiculously low even if in US dollars as I assume they are. I don't put much stock in the StackOverflow survey.

Then put stock in a the words of a guy who has actually looked for employment in Canada, and after the election of Trump is very incentivized to take a positive view on moving to Canada: as far as I can tell from the salaries posted, I'd take about a 50% pay cut, and I wouldn't be able to afford a house (at least not in Vancouver). Drop me in, say, Kamloops for $65K/year and maybe I'd do it. But there are few, if any, software jobs in Kamloops, or Kelowna, or much anywhere else outside Vancouver.

The Club Penguin shutdown is a devastating blow to the Kelowna tech industry!

(seriously, their headquarters are there)

They didn't shut down the offices. They just moved to a mobile Club Penguin game instead.

The Okanagan is actually a great area to live in as far as tech goes in Canada.

That's interesting. I grew up around there and would definitely consider moving back one day to be around family.

What are the big tech names around there these days?

If salaries and housing prices in Canada were at all reasonable, I know many fellow Canadians would move back from the Bay area in an instant. Toronto is the other major tech center which is stupidly priced (hopefully the new govt measures slow things down). If you can speak french, consider Montreal.

Be mindful that there is (mostly) terrible weather everywhere in Canada except in Ontario/South BC(Vancouver)

"Less terrible" in Ontario, "not great" in BC

Depends on your definition of terrible, I suppose. I never feel more alive than when I go for a walk on a crisp, sunny -20 degree morning. I used to get mornings like that quite often in Ottawa, and I've missed them the past couple of years in Toronto.

If you can't speak French, move to Montreal anyway, like everyone else!

How about the Tri-Cities[1]? I have several friends who live there, seems like there are lots of tech jobs around.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tri-Cities_(Ontario)

Still very limited job opportunities compared to US tech hubs, but the cost of living is indeed not out of control.

The biggest problem there is you have to be OK living in a place like Waterloo, which is great if you like suburbs and want lots of space, not so great of you're into city living.

I live about 50 minutes from Cambridge/Waterloo/Kitchener. I'd totally move that way but my wife wants to stay close to her mom. If we made that move I'd be mortgage free after selling the Mississauga house for $200k more than the Guelph/Cambridge house would cost.

You might already use this site, but if not, definitely add it to your job search:

http://www.viatec.ca/jobs

I moved to Canada in 2005 or so. It set me back a little financially to wait for my visa and build up a credit profile here but 12 years later I think it's one of the best decisions I've ever made.

Would might net worth be slightly higher if I had stayed in the US? Yes, because I spent around $30k to get established (that was also a personal choice, I needed a break after a rough startup go between '98-2005.

I, too, like BC, but SW Ontario has more jobs.

> And I'm not trying to be argumentative, but your take on TN visas is extremely simplified. For instance software developers aren't actually allowed to have a TN visa, and instead you have to say that you're a "system analyst".

Small correction. "Software engineer" has been a valid TN category since the early (?) 90s.

Yes, I know several people from Mexico who have a TN visa. They just have to make sure their job title says "Engineer".

It's actually just "Engineer", which is pretty broad I guess. Does your diploma have to say anything about "Engineer"?

It might be better to look at the US as an outlier here. Those Canadian salaries (esp if they're slightly low based on the other comments here) don't see too dissimilar to what's available in the UK (outside London which has higher salaries for every job due to cost of living).

At the end of the day, those 'low' salaries are only low relatively. They are more than enough for most people and only a reason to move south if your main driver is money. Otherwise they're good enough.

> At the end of the day, those 'low' salaries are only low relatively. They are more than enough for most people and only a reason to move south if your main driver is money. Otherwise they're good enough.

The average Canadian house costs $585k now[0]. That's over 10x these average Canadian tech salaries. Housing prices contributed to our decision to move from Toronto to Seattle 10 years ago. I imagine that they are even more of a motivator nowadays.

[0] http://www.theglobeandmail.com/real-estate/house-price-data-...

Well, as long as we are compare to the U.K. also, Canadian and American real estate often look like a bargain.

The thing about Canada is that Nafta makes it easy to move south, while in the U.K. going to the USA is not as simple.

Which is extraordinarily frustrating given how close our cultures our and the amount of talented developers who'd like to take a role in the US.

I just had an interview fall through because I'm a Brit and it would be difficult to get me over to SF due to the visa system. Maybe I should look for a dev job in Canada? :P

I think Canada is pretty easy for UK/Ireland. I know a few people who moved there for work with relatively little planning and within a couple of years, they've got permanent residence. They moved for standard big company jobs too, it's not like they're experts in their field or anything.

Yeah, I'm definitely thinking about it. I speak English and French plus am legally qualified and can program so I think I should have a good shot!

No way those numbers are right. At least not in Toronto. I'm a back end dev with under 5 years experience and you couldn't get me to set the clock on your microwave for $53k.

For my benefit, would you be willing to share your salary or range (and currency :)?

I'm not the grandparent post, but, my salary in Canada was $80K starting in 2000, and is up to $160K now.

I've been making more than double the median wage in my city for the last 20 years or so.

$80K CAD is $59K USD, which is not that much different than the original post. $160K CAD = $119K USD is fairly good, but most developers with 17 years experience would take home north of $200K in Silicon Valley (I'm not familiar with other US markets).

All the anecdotes still seem to point to software engineers making more than double in the US. I would love to return to Canada some day, but I'm not likely to do so until the numbers I see people post online start beginning with at least a 2 or 3.

Exactly. A USD 200K software eng simply cannot move to Canada. It is messed up. That is more than a director or higher's salary in a place like Toronto.

If you're living in Canada, you're spending money in CAD. I don't think its fair to convert Canadian salaries to USD to make the comparison. Still, $160K CAD is considerably less than $200K USD.

If you are living in Canada, everything retail is more expensive anyways, so just converting to USD isn't very accurate.

$160k CAD = $120k USD.

And you have 20 years experience? If you are good, you could be making 4x this in the Bay Area. Or more,

We hire a lot in Montreal. Mid-size startup. Range is more like CAD 85-140k for generalist frontend and backend developers.

In the larger cities, salaries have really gone up in the last few years.

Name the company my man! Then don't mention Montreal again, we don't want everyone coming.

Might be a well-known streaming company that definitely has interesting technical issues. Problem for some is the content and reputation.

It sprang to mind.

French is the key barrier .. not naming the city :)

Eh not in Montreal. As an Ottawa native I've never had trouble in Montreal with my English and horribly broken French. Now Quebec city...

I disagree. I'm here, it's not ideal, I'm learning but it's not a blocker. Unlike say London when you cannot live in a decent area.

I think that actually makes the other posters points. That's 63-104k in USD, which is low. Most of us in the US would be taking significant pay cuts at that level. I have no idea how that stacks up as far as PPP.

>No need to wait for an H1-B, just show up at the border with job offer & credentials in hand, assuming you've graduated college. TN visas are instant and infinitely renewable.

This is false. I say this as someone with a TN visa, which I use to visit my employer a few times a year.

The TN application process is onerous and takes weeks to confirm. The actual visa is indeed granted at the port of entry but can be denied - simply having the completed application doesn't guarantee anything. And you have to go through the complete application process every time you re-apply. There is no renewal application.

The best way to get it done is to work for BigCorp, Inc. whose team of lawyers will handle it for you. If you work for a smaller company or are a contractor/consultant, you'll have to hire a lawyer for a few grand. I know because I've been there too.

  takes weeks to confirm

The "application" for TN is a rather new development (introduced in 2012). In the past, you couldn't apply by mail - you just show up at the port of entry with your job offer, description of job responsibilities, and university diploma. And they grant it on the spot. This is still how I get my TN.

Agreed. Apply at a port of entry. Don't bother with the mail. The border crossing application fee is only $50USD and is adjudicated on the spot at secondary. Takes a half hour.

> onerous and takes weeks to confirm

When I moved from Canada to the Bay Area, I accepted my job offer on a Friday evening, organized to get original transcripts from my university on Tuesday morning, FedEx'd them overnight to the law firm and they arrived on Wednesday. I received my TN-1 package (a thick, completely opaque set of forms, documents, letters and all sorts of other legal shenanigans) on Friday evening. I then bought my ticket to leave Canada the following Friday. All together it was 2 weeks from acceptance to arrival in the US.

Not every experience is the same, and no doubt it would have been far harder had my company not pipelined my immigration through a very prominent and large law firm.

That being said, the fact that I can be denied entry in the US at any time scares me. It scares my company. It's no secret it's expensive to hire, and even more expensive to hire new talent to replace talent that cannot enter the country. I say this as a young, educated professional with no criminal history or ties. I shouldn't have to worry about this.

I'm guessing you work at one of the big 4.

I recently moved from Waterloo to San Francisco. My salary had doubled in the process, but my living costs have also substantially increased. I live in a 1-bedroom condo with similar square feet; my diet stayed the same, I pursue the same hobbies and similar habits (fitness, education, entertainment). In the end, the higher cost of living offsets my salary increase, and my quality of life stayed the same.

You are either not paid enough for a SF/SV engineer, or were paid quite a lot in Canada. Even with my increased rent and food I'm saving in a year what took me 2-3 in Canada.

Parent's mistake is to maintain the same lifestyle. If you settle for less housing or room mates, you come across ahead.

Depends how nice your lifestyle was back in Canada.

If you used to live in a nice 1BR condo, you could definitely move to SF and spend an extra $20k/year in housing and still come out way ahead.

If you used to live in 3br house with a backyard and garage, you definitely won't be able to maintain that in SF.

Why would someone move for work if it meant a lifestyle downgrade?

It doesn't have to be a downgrade in the aggregate. You can downgrade your housing but upgrade other stuff.

That is, if stuff or travel are your main motivators in life. If you'd prefer to raise a family, a 1BR ain't gonna cut it.

No need for the snark; obviously "other stuff" includes things you need for raising a family.

Right, but housing is sort of the bare minimum. People in developing countries raise families in extremely cramped conditions, true, but that's not something you can get away with in our society. Children's Aid Society, Family & Children's Services, and many other organizations will intervene in such situations. It'd be especially embarrassing to be put in such a situation just so you can bump up from a high-five-figure-job to a low-six-figure-job by moving to SF.

Beyond that, there's also the issue of schooling. That tends to be a nightmare for people in the Bay Area, due to the districting policies. Many Bay Area parents opt for private schooling, further adding to the expense.

DCFS is the main reason not to raise children in cramped conditions?

How about, you know, basic empathy? (Unless you have some reason to believe that DCFS has unreasonably high standards here?)

DCFS is the main reason not to raise children in cramped conditions?

No. I was never advocating for raising children in cramped conditions. Remember, the person I was arguing with lumped family into "other stuff".

I live in Waterloo. I've seen more than one person on HN argue that you should leave as soon as you get your degree here. I don't want to do that. I think Waterloo has some wonderful neighbourhoods for raising children, complete with top notch public schools within walking distance. The real estate prices here are not nearly as bad as Toronto, let alone SF. Even if you could make 3 times as much working in the Bay Area as you could here; I would assert that it's easier to buy a 3BR house here, have 2 kids, get them both into university and keep them healthy the entire time than it would be in SF.

The idea that "the increase in cost of living wipes out the salary increase" always comes up in these threads, and I think it's way off the mark.

For example, I used to live in Fukuoka, a mid-sized Japanese city, and now live in Tokyo. A nice 2BDR in Fukuoka downtown would cost (say) U$600 per month. My salary in Tokyo is about double of what I could earn in Fukuoka, but an equivalent place in Tokyo would cost me way over $1200. So I don't live in downtown, and I choose to live in a smaller place. But it's not like everything costs twice as much as in Fukuoka. Food is a bit more expensive, not twice as much. A smartphone costs pretty much the same wherever you are in Japan. Traveling abroad also costs the same (or less in Tokyo, since you usually need one fewer leg). More importantly, if I keep my savings rate the same (savings/income), I can save much more money in absolute terms; I don't have to retire in Tokyo, so it is definitely worth the save more.

Rent tripled once I moved to SF, and there are quite a few other things than just food and rent. For example, Crossfit Classes and Yoga classes cost 3x as much ($10 vs. $30). Going to the bars here are at least 2x as much ($5 vs. $10+). So really it comes down to lifestyle, admittedly I tend to live an expensive lifestyle.

I was an executive at a SW firm in Toronto for almost 9 years (I'm originally from the US).

In order to hire relatively talented people, the salaries were (even in 2007) no where near what you are describing.

When I resigned in 2014 the lowest paid developer on a 30 person team might have been making around $80k. Typically salaries were between $88 and $110.

While there are a large number of Canadians that have gone to the US to work, I regularly encounter Americans in tech that have come here. Sure, it's anecdotal.

My taxes are only slightly more than I paid in Wisconsin, and likely on par with California. And for that I always have some level of basic healthcare, even if I lose my job. Plus, the government tries harder for its citizens here.

My sense is the more ambitious Canadian engineers and/or those with high earnings potential will be drastically better off in the US (financially speaking) because the upper end of compensation and access to job opportunity is so much higher, but beyond that it's significantly murkier and highly dependent on personal circumstance.

As long as you are not on an H1B you might be better off. That said, fintech in Toronto is burgeoning.

Shopify https://www.glassdoor.ca/Salary/Shopify-Ottawa-Salaries-EI_I...

Software Developer $80,947 Software Engineer $96,600

500px https://www.glassdoor.ca/Salary/500px-Salaries-E600778.htm Software Engineer $93,333

The averages are pulled down by lots of mediocre companies. Startups and big places like Google and IBM have salaries that are nowhere close to your numbers. Couple this with taxes here being much much lower than say the bay area, and you are doing really well living here.

For reference: $96,600 CAD == $71,718 USD

Note that is at the current exchange rate

Sure, but most of these sky high US salaries are in the bay area. So consider that the cost of living is roughly double there:

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...

You're listing two companies that are veritable unicorns in Toronto. There are a handful of successful mid-level companies like those in the city, and tens of thousands of hungry developers earning far less at non-technologically focused companies.

The average Torontonian (in any field) earns ~$50-70k and costs here are quite high still, even if they trail San Francisco by ~30%.

To wit: on that average salary you certainly won't starve, but pick one: save money, buy a car, have a child (and that might be a stretch).

Yes, that more or less sums it up. Plus you have fewer job opportunities and career mobility as well as higher taxes and rapidly rising real-estate prices in both Vancouver and Toronto. I think Canadian software engineers are crazy to stay in Canada.

I'm a Canadian software engineer living in Canada, but I'd never consider working for a Canadian or US company here and earning Canadian dollars - it just makes no sense. I work remote only (these days only part-time.) It isn't such a great deal as it used to be for me now that I have to pay Canadian taxes, but it was bloody fantastic when I used to live in Panama and legally paid no tax of any kind other than 7% sales tax.

I thought in Panama (and anywhere else outside the US) you have to pay income tax on earnings over $100k. I think you have to pay into Social Security too?

Yes that's correct. Although, if you're working remotely you're not likely to be making much over $100K, so it may still be worth it. Your take home may still be close to working in the Valley, and your cost of living, excluding food will be less than half.

I'm Canadian though, so I don't have to deal with the long-armed-fingers-in-my-pockets embrace of Uncle Sam. Every other country in the world is sensible enough to only tax residents.

Could you explain? I live in Germany but, as far as I know, am still required to file taxes in Canada every year.

If you're non-resident in Canada, you only have to pay tax in Canada on Canadian-source income. Unfortunately, yes that includes a pension.

To be non-resident you have to spend at least half the year outside the country and have no residential ties to Canada like property, dependents, bank accounts, health insurance, etc.

See: http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/nnrsdnts/ndvdls/nnrs-eng.html

Do you have to pay tax on your German earnings (earned in Germany, which you already pay tax to the German authorities on)? Almost all countries only tax you on the money earned (approximately) within their borders. So for most 'expats' it amounts to taxing interest and dividends, and maybe rental income on your old house.

Not so the USA, which has a claim on all money earned by Americans world-wide. There's a ~U$100k earnings exemption (so many people aren't paying much tax back to the USA), but high-earning USA expats are in a different tax-world from their overseas colleagues.

  as well as higher taxes and rapidly rising real-estate prices in both Vancouver and Toronto

Taxes are lower in Ontario than California for most people.

Income taxes (maybe). Not VAT, gasoline or alcohol taxes, just to name a few.

Ok, so you're saving 4% on VAT in California - if you're spending $40k/year on non-rent things, that's $1600. Alcohol taxes are negligible. Gasoline taxes in Ontario are higher than in California, but also a negligible difference.

But high earners pay lower taxes in California because the higher brackets are lower and they can purchase a home (interest portion of mortgage is tax deductible).

> TN visas are instant and infinitely renewable.

Not for Mexicans, as I found out the hard way. I tried doing this to come to Canada, but since Mexicans at the time needed an entry visa, I had to leave the country for a month and apply for a work visa in NYC. It was pretty frustrating for me because I read and re-read all the documents I had to read, and everything seemed to say I could just walk into Canada with my NAFTA-relevant job offer.

On the other hand, the Canadian border guard at Toronto was very nice to me, said I had to figure out my visa status and let me in anyway on a 1-month temporary visa, to give me time to go to NYC and fix my visa status.

Policies around visa processing vary with time and even depending on what port of entry or what agent you get. (It's a taste of what the state is like when there are no accountability procedures.)

There are people in the Valley who specialize in tracking every twist and turn of what visa policies are like this year.

In my experience, those numbers for Canadian salaries would be ridiculously low.

Also, I'm assuming those numbers are converted to USD. Even if they look lower, you have to consider what kind of lifestyle the salary buys you where you are earning it.

In my experience, the real reason people leave isn't so much salary, as lack of opportunities.

It's an interesting situation. Not difficult to imagine Canadians moving to the US, while immigrants who lose out on H1B visas take their place in Canada.

Of course, Trump has said before he's not a huge fan of NAFTA either, so...

On the other hand, basing your startup in Canada means dramatically lower costs (made even better with programs like SR&ED), while still having access to a talented pool of developers. And yes, there are plenty of people who simply do not want to move South, and plenty of people willing to move North.

Maybe for some areas but for Alberta this is closer to reality:

https://alis.alberta.ca/occinfo/occupations/computer-program...

Note that salary is also close the same wage (~10% more) as an electrician, accountant, or boilermaker.

Hey fellow Albertan. Keep in mind the USD/CAD exchange and that $90k here becomes $60kUSD.

The developers I know that are worth their chops have all taken remote US contracts. I'm looking to do the same because local companies just can't compete with the work available nor wage.

100% agreed

Statistics are good for describing populations. Average pay can be a useful metric. However, when looking at what you or I might earn in Canada it is completely useless. I make 4x the average where I live. Salary is very negotiable and often has a lot of variance.

Is that adjusted for cost of living?

Well if you cannot stay in US, going to Canada is better than nothing. Trump says it all.

Trump says what exactly that affects the bottom line? It's business as usual for the cabal. Wake up. Trump just be trumping.

Part of this might be the poor CAD:USD exchange rate.

Additionally, sales tax is high relative to the US. IIRC GST in Toronto was around 15% when I was there last summer.

13% in Toronto. 5% in Calgary.

Even Australia is better than Canada, $100K for a senior dev vs 80K and the cost of living is pretty much the same.

I can't believe it's so low. I hope Canadians aren't asked to put in overtime at those wages.

You better believe it. Overtime is expected.

Maybe where you work. Not expected everywhere at all.

Not the same as the US. In the US, if you lose your job, you lose health care. That is a big motivator for people with families. I've seen people take a lot of crap in the name of a job. In Canada, it is not that bad unless you took a crazy mortgage in the last 5 years.

It's even more fun, in BC "high technology companies/professionals" are exempt from a bunch of the usual labour laws around overtime, hours of work, stat holidays, etc.

http://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/employment-business/employ...

Of course, in practice, no sane company is going to abuse this to the extreme. People do get stat holidays, overtime isn't usually used, etc.

Those seem too low, both US and Canada. Is anyone really paying a ML specialist $53k?

I'm assuming that comparison is converting CAD to USD which would make it ~$72k CAD, because $53k is way to low. But that doesn't make this comparison any more realistic seeing as you'd be living in Canada spending CAD.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com