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Comment by skdotdan | Hacker News Reader

Instead of building an MVP and then trying to sell it, there are people who suggest: 1-Think of an idea. 2-Make a simple landing page with a mockup or something. 3-Try to sell the product. And by selling the product I mean actually selling it (so people actually transferring you money). If you can achieve a given amount of sells in a given amount of time (important: set concrete goals with concrete timing), then you have validated your product. 4-Build a first version of your product. 5-Iterate.

Very simple to say, very difficult to do (I've never tried, but I would probably fail). But I think there would be ways to systematically apply steps 1-3 until you find the right product to work on.

Any thoughts?

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What you describe is smoke testing. However, taking money and not having a product is considered fraud in the US. The way you get around this is that on the final confirmation page where you would normally take payment details you instead say the product is on backorder but that the person can enter their email to be notified when it's available. That'll give you the stats you need without running afoul of the law or dealing with payment gateways for payments you are not really accepting.

Yes, or Kickstarter.

The point is that to actually validate a product idea, potential customers should actually pay, or show a real interest in paying, for that product. Otherwise, it's not validated.

Disclaimer: never tried, but it's a typical advice I read in this kind of posts.

I think what you're describing would be referred to in court as fraud.

Really? Maybe the way I didn't write it didn't imply it, but I actually meant that you always had to make very clear that the product doesn't exist yet. You are selling the concept of something you are or you will be working on. If after a week you have managed to do only 1 sell, then return the money, say your product didn't receive enough interest, and try something else. However, if you manage to do 1 sell, you will probably manage to do more than 1. The first one is the difficult one.

If you achieve a decent amount of sales in a week, then build quickly the first version of your product.

> I actually meant that you always had to make very clear that the product doesn't exist yet.

That wasn't clear to me. It looked like you were proposing the sale of a nonexistent product. If you're openly and clearly stating that it's basically a preorder, then sure, that's fine. That sounds like a tough sale, though.

I was proposing the sale of a nonexistent product, but making clear that it doesn't (already) exist and telling properly how it will look like. Also, this product should be feasible to do in, say, less than a month.

So, it's kind of a preorder, but a cancellable (by the seller, obviously by the customer too) one.

It's a very tough sale, but precisely for that is a way of discarding business/side projects ideas in a massive way. If you can sell it before it exists, it means that there are people VERY interested in such a product, so you are on the way to success.

Disclaimer: it's very easy to speak and very difficult to put in practice, and I have never tried.

It'd be easier to just use kickstarter for that.

Probably.

It's only a fraud if you take the money and never deliver it.

If you don't take the money or deliver within the stated parameters, how is it fraud?

Many business sell product they don't have. It's a standard practice in some businesses such as when you don't take delivery of the product as a seller, or when you use someone else's inventory, etc.

> If you don't take the money or deliver within the stated parameters, how is it fraud?

I already answered that in the comment you replied to: "If you're openly and clearly stating that it's basically a preorder, then sure, that's fine."

I read this more as a Kickstarter-style setup where you are pre-ordering the product, not that you actually promise them something you can't yet immediately deliver.

I think they meant they would return the money if they ended up not delivering the product.

But, you are on to something. I think this is what always bothered me about the "lean" approach: it almost feels like you're tempting yourself to create vaporware.

That isn't fraud; contracts are drawn up all of the time (with X amount needed up front) promising future work.

This is no different than buying a house that hasn't been built yet. People do it every day.

If you've never tried it and don't know how to make it work, why give that advice?

I'm not giving that advice. I'm saying that there are people who do.

My bad. I missed the part "there are people who suggest..".

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