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Comment by snowwrestler | Hacker News Reader

The implied social judgment whenever Uber drivers come up is a bummer.

Yes, people prefer to make a little bit of money instead of not having money. This is surprising?

And when someone earns a little bit of money, they might wish that they made more money. Again--not news.

I think before getting critical about why Uber drivers are so dumb, it's worth thinking about why you don't drive for Uber. The answer probably starts with "because I don't feel like I have to." It does for me.

If someone has a great highly-paying full time job and still drives for Uber, then sure, question that person's judgment. Most Uber drivers are not in that situation though.

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I'm not being judgemental, and I'm not saying they're stupid to drive for a small immediate profit instead of doing nothing.

I'm just perplexed when they say they're losing money (or making so much less than minimum wage that they may as well be) but they keep on doing it instead of stopping. If they're not just blowing off some steam with hyperbole, they would literally be better off staying home on the couch.

> I'm just perplexed when they say they're losing money (or making so much less than minimum wage that they may as well be) but they keep on doing it instead of stopping

Most people don't drive Uber as a job. It's a second or third job. Make-you-own-hours is what makes that possible.

> If they're not just blowing off some steam with hyperbole, they would literally be better off staying home on the couch.

I mean, ditto for payday loans -- you're better off not having the money. Unless you actually need the money to make rent. Then you're screwed.

Uber is better than payday loans, but if you're depreciating your car at a faster rate than you're making money, you're still up against a negative expected value.

If you drive for Uber could you partially count the depreciation of your car (for the miles you drover for Uber) on your taxes? At least then you'd get some benefit in the form of a reduced tax bill that could offset the losses.

Landlords use depreciation to have low taxable income despite being cashflow positive. I don't see why Uber drivers shouldn't be able to. They're making business use of a physical asset (their car).

My understanding is, yes, you can deduct the IRS per-mile (54 cents per mile driven) as a business expense, which will reduce the amount of taxes paid. At least one Uber driver I rode with told me he did this. In fact, not doing it would be missing out on a huge tax benefit!

Example 10-mile trip: 1.25 base fare + (10 miles * 1.15 per mile) = 12.75 * 80% (driver's share) = $10.20 revenue - 5.40 deduction for mileage = $4.80 revenue reported. For somebody in 20% tax bracket, this could yield $1.08 in savings.

Although using the per-mile deduction negates the ability to deduct line item expenses, such as gas, car washes, etc.

I was thinking more like depreciating the value of your car according to whatever depreciation schedule the IRS allows, prorated by the proportion of the miles you drive for Uber.

Something like - your car cost $30,000 and depreciates over 10 years, so $3,000 per year (just making up numbers, no idea if/how the IRS depreciates a car). So you'd have a $3,000 loss in the value of the car per year until it drops to 0. If the car was used 40% of the time for business (driving for Uber) you could claim 40% of the depreciation - $1200. I guess then you'd have to separately itemize all the gas, maintenance, etc.

But if you're actually losing money on the Uber-driving endeavor when that is factored in, whatever revenue you get should be tax-free. Of course, I suppose that only works if you're an independent contractor / business, and Uber drivers fought so hard to get treated as employees instead. Oh well. Employees get screwed when it comes to taxes.

Even with -EV on vehicle cost you are gettig cash in hand. -EV long-term, +EV short-term by paying rent.

The same thing is true for payday loans...

But the comment you're replying to is saying what's the point in working literally for free or at a loss? Sure, if you're not making much, that's one thing, but actually making zero is what they were talking about.

The post above that one (the actual Uber driver) says that their hourly rate is about $8, not $0.

Nobody wakes up in the morning and says "today I'm going to drive for Uber literally for free." Of course not. Let's use a little common sense here.

Uber drivers expect, plan, hope to make money. The point is, they don't make much, and sometimes it's very little (like on a long fare).

So the question is, then why do they keep doing it? And I'm just suggesting that maybe a lot of them don't have a higher-paying alternative that they are dumbly choosing against.

> I'm just suggesting that maybe a lot of them don't have a higher-paying alternative

This still doesn't make any sense. If you are losing money working for Uber, then you do have access to a higher paying alternative - which is literally standing in your house and doing nothing. Because zero is greater than a negative amount.

I think there are really three explanations that make sense:

People are not literally losing money working for Uber, or maybe they are sometimes but not overall at the end of the month, and they're just rhetorically exaggerating in frustration.

People are literally losing money working for Uber but only when you include depreciation of their car, and that is a long term cost, so people are effectively taking a loan from their future selves.

People are literally losing money working for Uber but morally feel that they should be working rather than not working, even if there is no economic reason for them to do so, and they just hope their situation will improve in the future.

>> People are literally losing money working for Uber but only when you include depreciation of their car, and that is a long term cost, so people are effectively taking a loan from their future selves.

I believe this is it. They need money now, Uber is better than a payday loan but yes, they are mortgaging assets to make some cash now.

A fourth:

People are literally losing money working for Uber but enjoy driving as a hobby, and Uber helps them recoup at least some of the costs of driving around all the time.

(yes, I've had drivers tell me they do Uber/Lyft for fun because they love driving)

I love to drive, and while being a taxi/uber sounds like fresh hell to me, I know I would represent myself as 'driving because I love it' in my shitty ford to save face when I am trading the equity in my car i am still paying off for food in a downward spiral of depression and poverty. People who love to drive, drive sports cars, not taxis.

thank you for being empathetic

They're not making $0. They're trading $8/hr now against the cost of depreciation that they'll be able to "pay" later. Is that short-sighted? Yes. Do people feel like that's necessary when they have looming bills that need to be paid right now? Also yes. It'd be nice if people in that situation could afford to be more future-minded, but that's easy to say when the income from your primary job easily covers your expenses. Not so for many people.

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