Donations and Women in Tech Panels Are Not a Diversity Strategy
medium.com
medium.com
http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20110502006774/en/Fair...
edit: My point is that throwing a "diversity strategy" completely in the trash "because meritocracy" doesn't make sense. I can't say the linked study is 100% applicable but hopefully it will open the door to consideration of the value of combining multiple approaches.
What would you suggest, after having read this, to not attempt meritocracy at all because it will be biased when those making the decisions are biased?
Replace them with algorithms. Feed the algorithms objective metrics that you wish to optimize. This is much easier said that done, but now your meritocracy does what you intended it to do. If you encounter problems, the metrics are not what you want them to be, or the problems are problems at another level, which you cannot solve from changing this part of the system.
That's not an indictment of pursuing a meritocracy.
Edit to add: If you choose to reply, please include attempts at answering all of the questions. Note there's nothing in this comment that assumes that hiring is the appropriate (or only) place something (if anything) should be done. It's easy to dismiss this as only "yes, there are disparities, but it shouldn't be fixed here", or "equal opportunity". That's not the end of the conversation. What does a better solution look like?
Target inequality of opportunity, and do not assume that differences in outcome are prima facie evidence of differences in opportunity.
In other words, the pipeline is the place to solve this.
If they 'match' - then it's a roughly good indicator that the hiring process 'is fair'.
As far as I know - this is generally true: the ratio of female engs. in the valley is roughly commensurate with the ratio of females graduating from Comp Sci. Which is actually positive news.
Now - that's nowhere near the whole story, but at least it's a crude basic metric.
that's nowhere near the whole story
I'm glad you acknowledge this. It's a story that tends to get abandoned after looking at the types of metrics you describe. I don't think that's what you're doing here, by the way. Just the fact you bring it up makes it clear you don't.
The fact that 'the first rough metric' is pretty decent, I think speaks to the general fairness and goodwill in the tech industry.
I've worked in tech my whole life - and without a doubt the people are pretty good. It can be a little guy-ish sometimes, and there are some bad-actors/companies, but I reject the idea that Tech is bad for women. Google and Facebook are probably 95% Obama voters, and progressive on almost every issue. To scream bigotry among this group is just too rich.
So yes - the story does not end there, and there are clearly more obvious problems as you move up in management - but I also don't see an entire industry that's in some kind of trauma.
Interesting tidbit: a survey of tech workers shows that men point primarily to the 'funnel problem' whereas women point to the 'lack of role models'. Which I thought was telling, and hints at an opportunity for improvement.
a survey of tech workers shows that men point primarily to the 'funnel problem' whereas women point to the 'lack of role models'.
Interesting. Do you have a reference to this survey at hand?
Which I thought was telling, and hints at an opportunity for improvement.
I'm not sure if I'm particularly dense (though I don't dispute this might be the case), but I think people generally assume that their intent in statements like this are much clearer than what is actually the case. I have a hard time knowing how to interpret what you mean, or what opportunity you see. Is it that you think there should be more role models for women? That the lack of role models for women indicates that there just aren't that many women in tech and that's because women aren't generally interested in tech so there really isn't a problem? That there's a mismatch between how men and women perceive the problem that needs to be addressed? If that's the case, do you think one perception is more accurate than the other? My comment to which you initially responded asked for specifics on implementation and measurement on addressing disparities in tech. I'm still interested in hearing for details rather than generalities.
There is no 'partisanship' in my comments. I'm just making a comment. That's all.
"I have a hard time knowing how to interpret what you mean"
I mean exactly what I say. There's nothing to interpret.
There is a lot of noise in the press about 'injustice' in terms of gender and race in the Silicon Valley - when, as a baseline - the Valley employs almost exactly the people that are fed into it. When you read articles about such issues - they generally do not refer to the fact that the % make up of the Valley is almost identical to the % makeup of those with relevant qualifications.
So - as a 'starting point' for any concern, it should be noted that by the easiest and most obvious measure - the Valley seems to be doing a pretty good job. Maybe even a great job.
I think this is unfair: a lot of voices 'screaming bigotry' in the press lack this perspective, and instantly distort the scenario by taking the assumptive position that 'there is inherent unfairness in the valley because only x% of their Engineers are of minority group ABC' - when in fact, it's actually pretty fair, given the talent pool they draw from.
I can't say that I've ever read an article critiquing the Valley on gender representation - that ever made mention of this fact.
So even though there is an issue to be addressed - it's also being misrepresented.
When I say 'there's more to the story' - I'm not offering a consolation or token to 'the other side' of the debate. I don't view these things as having sides. I'm simply stating that I think there's more to it. That's all.
I'm not debating anyone or taking any sides.
As for the 'male/female' perspective - I wish I had that reference for you - I read it relatively recently, and the data point really popped out at me, which is why I remembered it.
I'm a guy - so 'lack of role models' is something I would never consider as a possibility for 'why I wouldn't want to work in tech'. So, knowing that so many girls feel that way, make me think about the issue differently.
How can this be helpful? Well, for one, obviously by making sure that the 'stories' of female engineers are told, that there is visibility etc. - which is kind of a no-brainer, one that really should not be contentious.
But there are other issues. The Canadian Navy did a study (long ago) where they found that when ships deployed with very few women on board, that it was stressful for them. But when there was a 'critical mass' of them (I think like 8%), then they seemed to get along a lot better. So, this 'critical mass' concept might be useful in planning: if a 'guy founded' startup grows, they may consider reaching that 'critical mass' as an absolute minimum for female participation. Most companies don't think about gender issues until headcount gets larger, so maybe once they start growing, they can try hard to get 'a good group' of girls in, beyond that threshold, so that they don't feel isolated. The same could very well apply to minority groups - i.e. maybe there is a 'critical mass' below which many feel isolated. Black and Latino Engineers are pretty rare. This could be an issue there.
The 'role model' issue may be also strongly related to the lower participation of females in upper management. But that's a whole other can of worms, and I've already written too much so ...
I don't have to believe it, if you look at any statistics on this subject, you'll see some pretty obvious and typical trends (not many male nurses, not many female coal miners, etc).
>What demographic do you belong to?
Won't you just discard my opinion if I'm not of a demographic that's "allowed" to have a valid opinion on this? The most I'll say is that if you guessed, you'd probably be wrong.
>How do you think these disparities might affect society as a whole?
I think the push to correct these disparities is very harmful to society as a whole, as people are pushed into fields they don't actually like to correct for statistics that don't even matter, and who displace and disadvantage people who did not have to be pushed into their field nor lured with preferential hiring.
>If there are disparities, what, if anything, do you think should be done to lessen the disparity in demographics?
I will answer that question with a question: Why does this disparity need to be corrected? Do all such disparities need to be corrected? Where is the push for gender diversity in offshore oil rigs and coal mines, or for elementary education and nursing? If some do, and some don't, how do you decide which disparities to be corrected, and which ones not to be? What do we get out of correcting these disparities?
Many people, of a particular ideological demographic, believe gender disparities are solely attributed to social and cultural influences, and that women will have just as much interest in construction work and men will have just as much interest in nursing once you account for gender differences in socialization and upbringing and et cetera. I don't believe this has been proven.
Without knowing that every demographic has equal interest and potential in every job, what's the value in making sure every demographic has equal membership in every field of employment?
As for discarding your opinion, I wouldn't be asking for it if my intent was to discard it. The idea that someone's opinion is valid depending on their demographic is troublesome. I do think that one needs to be reflective and honestly question how their opinion is shaped by their particular circumstance.
As for the rest, it looks like it boils down for you that any disparity that currently exists is fine. The questions you raise regarding how to decide which disparities should be corrected I think is important and should be addressed, though my impression is that you think because this question is difficult (or exists at all) means the entire endeavor is invalid or should be discarded. If that's not your intent, I'm honestly interested in hearing your thoughts on them.
You're right, and I appreciate your phrasing. However, I feel very strongly about this, because I feel these policies hurt everyone, from the people in the majority they directly disadvantage to the minority groups they are supposed to advance.
>As for discarding your opinion, I wouldn't be asking for it if my intent was to discard it.
Could you say the same of every other person likely to view this thread? The same ideology that leads people to inject identity politics into everything is also the one that leads people to discard opinions if they're not from the "right" people. Everyone who isn't a complete minority has absolutely no incentive to tell people what demographic they belong to.
>As for the rest, it looks like it boils down for you that any disparity that currently exists is fine.
I wouldn't say this is true, but part of my dismissive attitude comes from the linked article, which suggests that people should change their hiring practices to move closer to their ideal of a "diverse" company, where all demographics have equal representation. I don't believe this ideal has value, and I believe trying to attain it is discriminatory and harmful to society at large. That doesn't mean all disparities should not be corrected, just that their correction should not involve rigging zero-sum games such as job admittance or university acceptance in favor of their demographic. Instead I am in favor of solutions further down the line, where the actual problem exists, such as increased school funding and better teachers so that these people have a better chance of getting into college and succeeding once they get there.
These are tough conversations to have. You have to be willing to put yourself out there and engage in a genuine manner to look for solutions people can agree upon. You're right that not everyone on HN (or elsewhere, for that matter) are going to be able to do that, but if everyone waits for everyone else to put their best foot forward, no progress is going to be made at all.
You mention increased school funding and better teachers. How do propose doing this? In the US, there's increasing focus on decreasing funding in public schools. Coupled with school funding being closely associated with property taxes, those most disadvantaged are those with the least funding available.
We see this EVERYWHERE, but we only care about a very very small subset of fields, such as tech and upper management. As long as no one is being discriminated, then I really don't care about the demographics in a field. People should be able to work in what ever field they're qualified for but I don't see the need to take speciel actions to get more black women into the programming for example.
As for companies, I don't think they are racist or sexist, so for large companies maybe dual interviews processes, to avoid a racist manager eject a person due to race.
It's not easy, if discrimination is really so wide spread as people would have us believe, then we need to start finding out why. If it's just people being asshole, then there's not really anything we can do, and we need to avoid these people and their companies.
If I understood your earlier comment, you were pointing towards there being underlying problems not limited to company hiring processes, or perhaps even outside of companies in particular. Here it looks like you're talking about companies again. I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on discrimination/disparities outside of companies. Or did I misunderstand your earlier comment?
Edit: companies are easy, because their motivation is always clear, people are.... weird
Let me try to summarize what I hear you saying:
There are demographic disparities everywhere between the general population and any given field. Some of those disparities may be due to discrimination, but to what extent discrimination may be playing a role is hard to determine. Companies (for the most part) aren't engaging in blatant discrimination. Some of the disparity is likely due to career choices that are in part a result of how people are brought up and their educational opportunities. As far as education goes, no one should be deprived of educational opportunities due to environmental factors.
Is that an accurate representation? I don't want to be putting words in your mouth or creating a straw man, as that serves no one. Please do correct or improve my summary where needed.
I think your point regarding educational opportunities is particularly important. How do you think this can be improved, in as far as decreasing disparities due to educational opportunity environment differences?
I'm not sure whether or to what extent it is true, but I'm defenitely not sold to the idea that they are pushing extremely polarising identity politics purely because of some idealistic reasons.
In every institution I've ever been at, people talked about how to recruit more women, but in practice this meant grabbing the first woman who applied and using them as a prop to show how diverse they were. Professors have blatantly admitted to my female friends that they were being used for that purpose.
This seems to radically mischaracterize the issues in that case.
"It turned out that keeping me on the team made my manager look good, and I overheard him boasting to the rest of the team that even though the rest of the teams were losing their women engineers left and right, he still had some on his team."
(from https://www.susanjfowler.com/blog/2017/2/19/reflecting-on-on...)
That's not the worst thing she reported, but it's there, and it's definitely very bad. Would you elaborate on what mischaracterization you see?
I bet there are a LOT of unreported such cases.
Susan Fowler's case has less to do with race/gender than sexual harassment and abuse of power. I sure as hell would avoid working there if that kind of behavior goes unchecked.
So if it's not exactly 50%, what percentage is it? How can you even figure it out?
A lack of diversity is one of those things that you know when you see. But as numbers improve, we are going to run into the problem where we have no idea when to stop obsessing over the numbers.
It's why I feel that equality in opportunity is the more effective measure. Are people doing what they want to be doing with their lives?
Something like 99.9% of midwives in Ontario are female. Is there a diversity problem? If you find men that feel like they can't become midwives for some reason, then yes. But not because that ratio feels imbalanced.
It'd rather seem that the primary argument to 'diversity' should be 'getting more women to study the relevant things'.
Though: surveys show that women in tech see the #1 issue is 'lack of role models' - ergo - a degree of feedback here, but really ... I firmly believe that if 50% of Comp Sci grads were women, that roughly 50% of Google Engs would be female.
Caveat: in management positions there is a totally separate spate of issues.
Also - similar issues apply to ethnicity. Tech is about 30% Asian, and very few African Americans or Latinos, which is again commensurate with the pool of graduating talent. Again there are clearly feedback issues - nevertheless - one cannot ignore this white elephant.
The first paper mentions that they only found a correlation, however contradicts themselves in attempting to turn this into causation, despite mentioning that correlation != causation: "While correlation does not equal causation (greater gender and ethnic diversity in corporate leadership doesn’t automatically translate into more profit), the correlation does indicate that when companies commit themselves to diverse leadership, they are more successful."
It doesn't seem like this was checked for backwards-causation (companies may be more likely to start prioritizing diversity when they are succeeding, but not when they are failing), among many other potential confounding variables, and it seems that they were very intent on trying to prove their outcome regardless of what kind of data they had, where the article starts out with "We know intuitively that diversity matters. It’s also increasingly clear that it makes sense in purely business terms." I didn't check everything from the second link, but this appears to be a very common pattern.
The third link attempts to appeal to the same sense, however goes much further, stating: "it was not “diversity” (having equal numbers of men and women) that mattered for a team’s intelligence, but simply having more women." This would seem to prove far too much, and is obviously not a generalizable result unless you sincerely believe that replacing all men with women will make your company perform better. I'm unable to view the full text or data from this paper due to the paywall.
If you're concerned about the proportion of groups such as women in tech, the right time to get them interested is when they are very young. Not during or after college. With a baseline of significantly more men in tech, you cannot reasonably expect to achieve figures such as a 1:1 ratio of female to male employees. With that said, the author seems to be focusing more on problems after people enter the workplace. There may be a lot of issues here, but I think solutions need to focus on deeper underlying problems such as culture, rather than single bottleneck processes such as promotions (and that which leads up to them).
Then I charitably followed the links in the paragraph. The scientific studies are underwhelming (in terms of convincing a tech company to do something). The mckinsey article cheapens itself towards the end ("The unequal performance of companies in the same industry and the same country implies that diversity is a competitive differentiator shifting market share toward more diverse companies." That implication is terrible)
It's not hard to understand how diversity in the workplace might challenge our minds more, keep us more professional (in company culture and hiring practice), improve fitness in whatever other ways. But it's all conceptual, and until there's more scientific evidence, the literature has to settle for being obnoxious - light on information, heavy on telling the reader what to think before and after said information (tabloid style).
1. Treat the women and people of color already working at your
company well, including paying them equitably and preparing them
for promotions.
2. Overhaul your interview process. Hire programmers that have
the skills the company needs.
3. Institute onboarding. Make sure that everyone has the
information they need to succeed at their jobs.
None of my employers have ever prepared anyone for promotions, regardless of sex or color. Companies would have to do this at all before questioning whether they do it equitably.Most of the prospective employers I have approached regarding job openings have had a horrible interview process. And I would suggest hiring for aptitude rather than existing skills. Almost everyone focuses on "what have you already done?" rather than "what could you do if we hired you?" It's maddening. Companies can barely test for skill, and I have only seen one that even tried to assess aptitude.
That would be great if companies maintained persistent records of internal collaboration. Unfortunately, I have anecdotally observed a trend of decreasing job-specific training, and less robust internal technical documentation. Some companies don't even have a stepwise guide for doing a manual build of their main software product after getting the latest source.
In short, those are good suggestions, but they don't need to be specifically targeted by sexes and colors. Everyone would benefit if companies did this. So why don't they? It seems like a sane and decent company would become diverse without needing to make any specific effort to do so, whereas a dysfunctional company would see its problems manifest in many different symptoms, with monoculture being just one of them.
We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13716297 and marked it off-topic.
Edit: it looks like you've been using HN exclusively to comment on politics. That's not what this site is for, and we ban accounts that do it, so please don't use HN this way.