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Comment by OoTheNigerian | Hacker News Reader

Dear Americans,

Being expected to tip a person for a service you just paid for is NOT normal!

Yes, in the EXCEPTIONAL situation where you want to give a person money for whatever reason, please do so but do not change a default setting for something that warrants it 10% of the time.

How does one justify going to a salon, being given a price by the barber, paying it and still be expected to "tip" the person you just paid what was asked for?

Uber including tipping will mess up the experience. Period. It will influence ratings. Cos, how would a driver rate 2 passengers with equal service but one tipped $20 and the other $0.

We from the rest of the world are very uncomfortable being forced to perform this "optional" task.

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Yes, I'm glad that on top of the cultural problems of Uber, at least they don't support tipping culture.

I use Lyft when I have the choice now, but the tipping makes me uncomfortable. Tipping is why taxis drive past people of the wrong skin color. Tipping is why the most important thing in restaurant service is to be sexually attractive to your customers. Lyft does not entirely have the moral high ground, because it supports tipping.

Just pay your employees the money they earned and charge me the correct amount for it.

"people of the wrong skin color". Ugh

I should've explained. I meant, how can skin colour be wrong or right!

@rspeer used sarcasm, implying everything you said in your two posts and more.

Your arguments are socially valid, but not statistically. People may not be racists nor sexual addicts, but unconsciously they will go to the place with less "poor people" and more "nice people", if they are able to pay for it. We can pretend that such thinking doesn't exist, but ask yourself with more attention.

"Tipping is why the most important thing in restaurant service is to be sexually attractive to your customers."

This isn't true. You tip for their service not sexual attraction.

It's hard to calculate the service they provide. Wouldn't you pay more for a pleasant drive than for an unpleasant one?

Besides these points, I think it is a stretch to say tipping is immoral.

> This isn't true. You tip for their service not sexual attraction.

Or you think you do: http://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?artic...

"This study found that attractive waitresses earned larger sales-adjusted tips than did less attractive waitresses. Attractiveness had no effect on the tips of waiters."

If this was just based on (an even) salary, wouldn't it be better for everyone?

The same logic applies without tipping. Attractive waiters can negotiate a better salary or get the job instead of someone less attractive.

Not in case of known salaries per position. (Or at least small differences in case of ranges) But we won't get there in one day. Getting rid of tipping is one of the steps.

Salaries might be set per position per restaurant, but go have a look at the staff at your local high-end steak place. Then go visit your local Chile's/Applebees/Fast Casual Dining place.

Which has a more attractive staff? Which do you suppose makes more in tips? (Or would in salary if straight salaried?)

I believe that in a straight salary system that more attractive people would be well served (no pun intended) to seek jobs at higher-end restaurants; I believe that's already happened to some extent. One table turn could tip $100 or more at a high-end place today. That will be partially shared with the multiple staff serving the table, but it's still going to be a very strong hourly rate.

Sure, there would be some migration towards the high-end, but at some point you either hire experienced people, or your reputation will suffer and you'll no longer be high-end. This migration leads to hooters, not to a place with sommeliers.

Getting rid of tipping is like treating chronic disease with symptomatic pills. Though we have to question, whether it is a real disease or simply our nature?

Demand is on customer side, not on service company or place. If someone wants to be surrounded by attractive service and is ready to pay for it (not rejecting averages, of course), is he completely wrong?

> This isn't true. You tip for their service not sexual attraction

Yes it is true. You may _think_ you do not tip for attraction, but in that case you either think wrong or do not represent a typical person.

https://psmag.com/attractive-servers-get-bigger-tips-2c7d89d...

That may be how it's supposed to work, but that's not how it actually works.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-startling-truth-about-tip...

Tipping could work, if the tips are received anonymously with some time period. So that drivers would not know, from whom the tip came from.

I'm not from US and generally I like the "no tips" culture. However sometimes I want to tip for exceptional service. Unfortunately Uber doesn't offer a tool for that. I think it could be implemented in some non-intrusive way.

You could always just give the driver a bit of cash on the side, if you have any, like an old fashioned tip.

1. I don't think the drivers can see how much you tip.

2. In case of restaurants in the US, generally servers make very little without tip. When you pay you are paying the restaurant and not the person who serve you food. I know it's different in other countries but that's just how things are here.

> generally servers make very little without tip

So pay them more. isn't the whole point of paying for a meal is to include expenses like paying employees? By paying tips you actually contributing to a system that doesn't pay to employees.

"So pay them more."

As a European that is also often uncomfortable with this typical US "custom", I think it is kind of an arrogant statement to make.

It is just a different way to do things, and I'm not sure what servers would choose given the option.

In Europe servers tend to work long hours, often at minimum wage (I worked briefly as one, while studying), it's not like they are treated substantially better.

At least in the US you can count on the occasional generous tip, and good servers tend to work for it.

How is it arrogant?

In European countries with minimum wages one can live off of, they are per definition treated substantially better.

Not only is this not always the case in the US, but there are exceptions from minimum wage in professions with tips.

But, if you decide not tip someone, especially a food service worker that you know is only making $2.35/hour, then you are punishing that worker. Punishing them vastly more than you are punishing are system or the employer. If you really don't want to support tipping culture, don't use any service/store that allows for it and petition your legislature to change the laws.

a food service worker that you know is only making $2.35/hour

This varies by state. For example, in Oregon the minimum wage is $9.75, and, importantly: Oregon is one of the few states that does not allow employers to take a tip credit. Employees must be paid at least the full state minimum wage, whether or not they also earn tips.

Despite this "high" wage, there is no shortage of restaurants in Oregon. Somehow good restaurants do manage to stay in business here.

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/oregon-laws-tipped-em...

> But, if you decide not tip someone, especially a food service worker that you know is only making $2.35/hour

In the USA, all tipped employees always earn at least the federal minimum wage. There is no such thing as a service worker making $2.35 per hour.

https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs15.htm

It's possible that food service workers might earn a lot more than minimum wage with tips, such that taking away their tips would hurt their compensation. Perhaps - it's still arguably no concern of the patron. If I'm buying an automobile from a car dealership, should I pay extra because the poor car salesman needs his commission? I don't think so. His compensation is between him and the leadership. It is fair that I negotiate the lowest possible price, and a price that works for me.

Regardless of all that, my primary point is that it is incorrect to claim that servers will make less than minimum wage without tips. They always earn minimum wage and so this is not a reason to justify tipping.

> But, if you decide not tip someone, especially a food service worker that you know is only making $2.35/hour

No, the society they live in is punishing them.

But it's hardly the patrons' responsibility to mitigate a horrible labour situation.

In USA, even minimum salary for servers is lover then minimum salary for other workers - the law expects the tips. Whole American culture expects patrons to pay directly to server.

> In USA, even minimum salary for servers is lover then minimum salary for other workers - the law expects the tips.

Not true. The federal minimum wage for servers and other tipped employees is the same as other employees: it's just the minimum wage.

https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs15.htm

"Where an employee does not receive sufficient tips to make up the difference between the direct (or cash) wage payment (which must be at least $2.13 per hour) and the minimum wage, the employer must make up the difference."

Interesting, they did not told us that part when I worked in USA in summer. Cooks got 6.5$ and that was minimum wage in there. Servers got 1.5$ and had to report all tips to be taxed. Then again, servers earned more overall, so minimum wage was not really an issue for them.

Literally the third sentence in your link provides support for GP's position:

"The employer is prohibited from using an employee’s tips for any reason other than as a credit against its minimum wage obligation to the employee (“tip credit”)"

You are mistaken. Please read the rest of the article, and the comment that is a peer to yours.

I agree with this sentiment. I hate the 'tip culture' too, but it's not going to change overnight and the reality is, if you aren't tipping people in the US (and Canada, btw), the worker is getting far less compensation.

It should change, but this particular Uber situation isn't going to be the straw that broke the camel's back I'm afraid.

Can the drivers know IF you tipped?

Then let the restaurants pay their servers more. Or put it in the bill. "service charge" it is called. Don't leave me with calculations to do and faux hospitality from waiters being nice only because of money.

I'd hate to have to do a "little dance" and show extra teeth every time I serve someone.

From my previous conversations with Lyft drivers, if I recall correctly they get a sum weekly/biweekly and don't see who tipped.

I used to live in a country where tipping wasn't a thing. But having lived in the US for a while now I actually like it. It gives the servers incentive to do well. Also you always have the option to not tip if the service is really bad. I understand your frustration, though. Perhaps, I've gotten too used to it haha.

Ok, this may work for drivers, but what about the kitchen staff at restaurants, don't they deserve more? Do you think the waiters share the tip? This is a horrible way to solve problems, everyone should receive a fair pay directly, by their employer.

> 2. In case of restaurants in the US, generally servers make very little without tip. When you pay you are paying the restaurant and not the person who serve you food. I know it's different in other countries but that's just how things are here.

Yeah, this applies only to US. It is a fucked up system. Everyone else people are rational and tips are not excepted - the service is excepted in the price.

It applies in plenty of other countries too, although not to such a high degree.

> Being expected to tip a person for a service you just paid for is NOT normal!

In other cultures it is normal. Yet in other cultures you'll offend people when you try to tip them. Can we just accept cultural differences, and, when visiting, adapt, please?

PS: I am "from the rest of the world", and you don't speak for me nor for my friends who work in service in Central Europe - you don't have to tip them and they'll still smile, but you'll wait for your drink while I can down and order 3.

It is not optional, you just have to understand that polite announce. It allows you to decide how much service guy/girl earned in your case. And the sane default is n%, depending on location. If you don't care, simply tip n% instead of zero. You are absolutely able to pre-calculate your expenses including tip if you're going to be served.

> It allows you to decide how much service guy/girl earned in your case.

Unfortunately that's not how it works, unless you also know what percentage of your meal cost goes to them. Maybe the restaurant already pays them a sizable portion of what you spent. Maybe they work for tips only. (regardless how legal that is) Maybe the tips go directly to them. Maybe they're pooled and shared with everyone at that shift. And many, many other questions... You don't know the answers, and nobody will tell you what they are. You're doing a blind bidding game.

If you want to do it and be fair to the servers, you have to tip them the whole amount you think they earned. Do you really want to decide that every time?

Even if shared, low-tip workers will be managed off by the team. On 'decide' part, you simply pay fixed percentage if you are not able to. Even kitchen is motivated that way on a long distance. That works at large scale, not in single case, right. Like a market.

I had some insight into how restaurant teams work. I could write a long post here, but in practice... no, nobody will be managed off, teams will fight internally, discussion about servers/kitchen tips split will both anger and further (if it's possible) divide people, ... Just remembering that stuff makes me sad. Maybe there are some good places. I've seen a few and it's a total mess, inequality, and any tip pooling leaves everybody upset.

Thinking of it, it's basically a small mirror of the general society with managers as the government.

„...paid what was asked for...“

A barber/hairdresser will get paid minimum-wage over here in Germany. From friends who worked in this profession I know that they make even less at the end of the day, roughly 5€ per hour. Only because you get paid market-rate doesn't mean you can make a living.

Whenever I ask myself if I would be happy to receive a tip being in the same situation I tip: restaurant, package delivery...everywhere.

Nothing specific to the US.

You tip for taking a delivery?

I do - when it is for a food delivery. If I order pizza or something, I'd tip something small to the person delivering it.

I'm from Belgium, so we do not have a tipping culture either, and in many cases it is not that needed, but always welcome (restaurants). I live in a university city, so many of the waiters are students and as having been a student in a similar position, I know that they do not tend to have money to waste so the tips are a nice extra.

In general I am happy that we do not have a strong culture around it like in the US, because then you'd have to find out how much to tip etc, which would probably be uncomfortable for me.

I tried "Gett" once or twice since they did a deal for new joiners.

They included a tip feature but it infuriated me with the way you had to decide on the tip amount before the journey was over. What if they don't drop me off where I want and stop the journey early? That default 20% tip you encouraged me to set is... not good.

The author asked a bunch of questions and even used the anecdote in a blog post. I think tipping here is fine and also the ethical thing to do. There was no tip option so...shrug. Do people not carry cash anymore, could have tipped in cash imo

I'm European and I actually prefer the tipping system for service over higher base wages. I'd much rather have the customers decide who gets paid better than giving equal wages to the crappy service at the cost of the good people and hoping the employer filters out the bad apples and rewards the good ones. Then again it's pretty rare to see "well your service was horrible, have 0$ as a tip" and the tipping also kind of smears together into one big "roughly 10-20% every time independent of service"...so whatever I just accept the better base wage and only tip for good service now. It's usually 25% or nothing for me.

+1 tips are just a result of ppl being brainwashed by capitalists who are not willing to pay WAGE instead.

Tipping could work if tipping was made annonomous to the service just provided in order to prevent users feeling guilty for not tipping or Drivers giving bad reviews for lack of tips.

But americas tipping culture is silly.

I don't know where you live but I know some Western European countries where tipping in the way you described it is quite normal.

I've lived in Belgium, Netherlands, Germany and Denmark. I can testify that I personally observed no tipping culture here whatsoever.

Belgian here - I do tip but as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, it's not part of our culture. And I leave mostly small tips, nothing comparable to the US.

I once paid a tenner with €5 due and left in a Belgian bistro. I was followed and forced to take back my €5 as they didn't consider tipping appropriate.

Never had that happen to me - but what I did encounter is that it is explicitely stated that tipping is not necessary and that the service is counted for in the bill.

But those are unique instances I believe :-)

Nonsense, tipping happens all the time in Germany.

In general, there is a north-south divide, but I guess it also depends on your milieu.

Are you referring to forced "optional" tipping or service charge included in the bill?

The latter is ok in my book because it is seen as part of the cost of the service but separated in the invoice just like tax.

The former is a BIG pain!

I have just wanted to object to the notion that this is an exceptional American phenomenon.

It's also common in Canada. In Europe? I'm not aware of any country using a similar arrangement.

Such as?

E.g. Austria, Germany, Switzerland

No it isn't.

At least in Switzerland, you round up a Franc or two maybe if you are paying with cash, just to make the bill easier to pay. If you are paying card you generally don't tip at all.

If you tip 20% you either come off as a stupid tourist, or if you speak the language and explain it is for exceptional service (and not just because you culturally don't know better) you will make the waiter's day.

Even tough I was born and raised in Switzerland I always give a 10% tip in a restaurant when I was happy with the service.

To give no tip is in my experience considered quite rude. I only ever do it when I was unhappy with the service.

I live in Switzerland too, born and raised here, and everyone tips only when the service is better than usual, or we round up and give a franc or two for the service

Thats interesting. I guess there is no general pattern here.

My personal experience when I was jobbing as a waiter during my university time was different. Larger tips (more than a round up) were rather the rule than the exception.

Due to the fact that all tips are usually shared with everyone working in the restaurant I usually even tip if I was not that happy with the service because I liked the food or also the other way around.

This has been my experience in the Suisse Romande. Maybe you are from the Schweizerdeutsch side?

Exactly. I do live in Zurich. I'm in Geneva quite often and even there when having lunch with my romand co-workers they usually tip around 10%.

It still is quite surprising how even those "habits" are different in all the different regions here.

It is really not normal, at least from my experience being and living in those countries.

You obviously have never been to a hairdresser in e.g. Vienna. The same applies to taxis, cloakrooms, hotels, bars and restaurants in southern Germany and Austria. But as said somewhere else, it could depend on your milieu.

Tipping a barber in those countries? I think you're making things up.

Next time you are around, I will be happy to give you a tour. Edit: Have a look yourself at this: https://www.google.de/?q=trinkgeld+friseur+deutschland

I was in Switzerland for a couple of years and only saw very drunk people try to tip female bartenders. Otherwise no tips. Prices are high and service staff are well-paid.

Give it a rest, man. Don't like how we roll in the US? Don't come. Don't want to tip? Then don't do it.

If you want to live in the US, then assimilate. Either do it or dont -- but please stop this pedantic "how-the-rest-of-the-world" works perspective.

Mr. US roller.

I'm sorry, you'd have to live with hearing different perspectives. I'll be visiting the US in a bit, I'll decide to tip or not and I'll still give my opinion. :)

Or you could take your own advice and avoid any place (on or off line) that will expose you to international perspectives.

I don't need an Internet argument to learn that tipping is uncommon outside the US. Nor do I care.

Your opinion is always welcome even if I disagree with it.

Enjoy your stay :-)

Well not only is it perfectly fair to criticize something irrespective of whether you live want to live or don't want to live in a place, given that Uber is international and does not allow tipping anywhere, even in countries without forced tipping, it's absolutely valid to be annoyed at US tipping culture.

The were many instance where I would have liked to tip an especially nice Uber driver as an extraordinary thing. But due to the poisonous tipping culture this is not easily available through the app and giving cache is another hurdle and inconvenient for both parties.

That seems like a silly perspective. Can't handle even reasonable criticism? Maybe you're the problem.

America has this huge ego, where some of you guys feel "the best". It's a third world country, seriously. Don't like how you roll and won't come back, once was enough.

It's your problem, so maybe try relaxing and listen to advice if it's sensible.

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