Hacker News Reader

Comment by paganel | Hacker News Reader

ICE vehicles are still considerably cheaper compared to EV. Show me a 10,000-15,000 euro electric hatchback that I'd be able to drive for 10+ years without having to purchase expensive batteries every 4-5 years and I'd buy it.

View on HN

In Norway a Golf costs $50k, a family sedan $80k and the most powerful 7-series can be $300k. This is because ICE vehicles have huge taxes in Norway.

A pure EV basically gets a 50% tax cut, which can be $100k if you were looking at a comparable ICE car to the Model S.

So in Norway the opposite is true "ICE vehicles are considerably more expensive".

You can also ask yourself this: what value you get for your money on a given budget if you buy a Golf at $50k which is half taxes, versus a Bolt at a similar price with almost none of it being tax? I'd choose the Bolt any day.

Obviously none of this translates to anywhere else. It's a lot easier to give a massive tax break if you had a huge tax initially, than it would be for e.g the US to slap on a 20% tax on new ICE vehicles. (Unless of course they are made in Mexico in which case it's apparently easy).

The Mahindra e2o Plus is priced between 10-15K USD (but currently only available in India I think) https://www.mahindrae2oplus.com/

I've owned an older model for 4+ years now. I haven't seen any drop in battery performance yet and the company says the battery should last 8+ years without problems. I can believe that based on my experience.

The older model is available in the UK. https://mahindrauk.com

I'm going to be honest that looks awful and not comparable to a cheap car like a Micra, Twingo or any of the other cheap city cars. Seems like you're losing a lot just to save a few quid on petrol.

How safe it is? Indian cars are infamous for their zero star safety rating.

This trope of having to replace EV batteries every 5 years is so prevalent, and so wrong, that I'm beginning to be suspicious as to its use.

It happens in laptops. Why should cars be any different?

Because electric cars don't actually use 100% of the battery.

If the battery is only charged to say 80%, and only discharged to say 30%, instead of doing full charges and discharges, it'll last longer. EV manufacturers know this trick and stop charging at something like 80%, while telling the user it's fully charged.

See for instance this article: https://cleantechnica.com/2016/05/31/battery-lifetime-long-c...

Why can't that be an option on laptops? I'd take that trade off.

It is on pretty much any quality laptop from this decade. I don't remember the last time I've had to replace a laptop battery.

I toast mine every 6mo-3 years if I actually use it on battery often (i do). Most laptop owners just want a compact desktop, and use theirs as one. Obviously batteries last longer than the tech is viable in that case. Smart usage used to make a larger difference, but the new batt tech seems less sensitive to heavy useage.

The BIOS in modern Dell laptops (e.g. XPS 15), at least, allows you to configure different modes of operation to make the battery last longer. You can choose to charge more slowly but have the lifetime of the cells extended, or charge quickly which will yield less cycles. I'm guessing other manufacturers allow some control over these things as well.

While the initial cost of EVs is higher the idea that you have to buy new batteries every 4-5 years is completely wrong. There are LEAFs with over 100k miles on their original batteries still running strong.

I think it's unfair to add battery purchases to the purchasing cost. They are effectively fuel costs because they depend on full charge/discharge cycles (and thus on distance driven).

Where are you getting your "some people replace their EV batteries after 4 years" fact?

A Used Renault Zoe can be bought for well under 10k EUR. In five years, replace the battery for an extra ~5K EUR (you probably won't need to, my EV battery is 4+ years old with 50k miles on it and still works great, but we'll include it in the cost just to calm your fears)

Even including a brand new battery, total cost is still well below your 15K EUR max budget, using real-world numbers you can actually purchase with today :

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?make=RENAULT&model=ZO...

>A Used Renault Zoe can be bought for well under 10k EUR.

What? Where? Denmark? I'd seriously consider. Here (Finland) they are completely unavailable as used, and new ones start at 32 990 €.

The GP linked to a UK website in their comment.

Oh. Right-hand drive. Not very good here.

It looks like a new Zoe sells for exactly half the price in UK (14 k£ , 16 400 €) than here in Finland (33 k€). Is there a substantial subsidy on electric cars in UK? Here they have less tax than others.

There is a substantial subsidy, but not one that covers the full price difference you've highlighted:

https://www.gov.uk/plug-in-car-van-grants/what-youll-get

I was talking about prices of new cars, for 4,000 euros I bought a pretty good 7-year old ICE hatchback which does its job pretty well. I saw that Zoe is priced at around 23,000 euros new, which for a mini-car is really expensive (if you're not a SV engineer, that is)

>"I was talking about prices of new cars, for 4,000 euros I bought a pretty good 7-year old ICE hatchback which does its job pretty well."

I don't know what the second hand car market is like where you live, but just in case it's similar to the UK, it's possible to get a second hand hybrid electric car for similar money in the UK. For example, can get a second hand Prius for less than £3k if you shop around:

http://m.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_sacat=18290&_from=R40&_trksi...

Well, sure, a 7 year old used car costs less than a 3 year old one does.

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison though. a Nissan LEAF or Renault Zoe will probably end up around your 4k euro price when they get to be 7 years old too.

My point is that if you want an affordable EV option, they exist. You don't have to be an engineer to afford an electric car anymore, they've become reasonably cheap, and prices seem to slowly be dropping every year

> A Used Renault Zoe can be bought for well under 10k EUR.

Bear in mind that with many examples of Renault and Nissan EVs, you also have to pay a mandatory monthly battery leasing fee - even as the second or subsequent owner. So the headline purchase cost is only part of the price.

There are some Zoes, and a larger proportion of Leafs, in which the battery is owned outright but one has to check before purchasing.

Does that mean they replace the batteries at no cost when they start to fail, as you're leasing them and don't own them?

My sincere guess is we shall reach the crossover point long before those ten years are up. Your new batteries won't cost you all that much in five years. But your petrol will.

... without carbon taxes.

Seriously people, everyone driving ICEs is using a massive subsidy loophole with respect to carbon emissions.

Outside of the US, very high gasoline taxes are common, even in the absence of more general carbon taxes; while gasoline users may still benefit from externalized costs, I think the case is less than clear-cut.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com