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Comment by borplk | Hacker News Reader

Maybe it's just me but posts like that you linked fill me with a toxic feeling. I don't know how to describe it. It just smells so fake and diplomatic. Plastered with photos of smiling people in different countries and happy-go-lucky company culture bullshit. I don't know how I could move my body out of the bed if I were to work in environments like that. A "company retreat" is a nightmare in my eyes.

Sigh. I'm a pessimistic loner of an introvert and I don't need your bullshit in my life. I wish there was some more room for us on this planet. Every corner you look it's either filled with extroverts or fake extrovert wanna-be rockstar-templayers.

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I consider myself an introvert as well, and quite frankly don't even think about things like company retreats etc. in my business. When we had lots of employees, even things like company Christmas parties or after work drinks would fill me with dread and I would just turn up out of duty. I would never organise them or enforce them, but simply go along when someone else did.

However, I've learned in all these years that for some people, this is actually what makes them tick. They thrive on such 'company culture' and the chance to let loose a little outside of the workplace. Each to their own. The sight of other people doing things they love shouldn't fill you with toxic feelings. Make you slightly uncomfortable or disinterested perhaps, but anything more than that, and there are probably deeper issues at play that probably need to be resolved in yourself, rather than externally.

I should clarify the part that I meant feels me with a toxic feeling was not seeing other people doing something they enjoy.

It's just that it seems like a carefully crafted image is being presented to manipulate the reader and to push forward a corporate agenda hidden behind a veil of optimistic language.

It's the corporate equivalent of a Facebook profile with holiday photos and what not.

I've seen people get sick of their "company retreat" on day one but they don't dare ever talk about it for fear of being labelled not a team player. They just pretend they are having the time of their life. And they'll come back write a blog post about their "WONDERFUL AMAZING JOURNEY" because that's politically correct.

No one writes some Medium post about "How I fucking hated being stuck with these people for 3 days and couldn't wait to come back home to take a break from this nonsense.".

It's one thing to say "parties aren't my thing," "I don't like talking to lots of people," and so on.

It's another thing to talk about a "carefully crafted image is being presented to manipulate the reader and to push forward a corporate agenda hidden behind a veil of optimistic language," a "toxic feeling," a "nightmare in my eyes."

The first case is just what it's like to be introverted, and I empathize with that. The latter is something else. That negativity and cynicism speaks to issues deeper than just being introverted. For example, I had this problem a few times before, and it usually had to do with feelings of jealousy over being left out.

I am somewhat introverted. Here's what I do if I'm at a company party/retreat/etc and I'm not having fun (usually because I don't see anyone I know): I leave.

Perhaps I'm just reading too much into the phrase "deeper issues" but I think you're reading too much into the whole "nightmare" phrasing.

I don't think it's so much of an issue of feeling left out as it is feeling pressured to suffer through it with a smile on your face.

Being visibly unhappy or disinterested while you are there usually brings additional pressure to engage. Leaving early invites later questions that require you to lie to be socially acceptable. And if the events are frequent enough it'll be obvious you are lying sooner rather than later.

And then add in considerations about what those above you in the company will think.

It's enough that I do have similar responses to such things. And it's also true that it's probably a somewhat too extreme of a response. Thinking about it is usually worse than actually being there, as it's usually possible to end up off in a corner with one or two other like-minded people which is mostly tolerable.

Although as things get more structured this gets harder, and the structure is usually accompanied by even more "optimistic language" so... again, the response seems fairly justified without invoking a need for "deep issues."

I guess what this makes me think about is, part of being an adult is doing things you don't necessarily like.

A company gathering, a few hours a couple times a year, that should be something a person can tolerate. They're your coworkers, you know them all to some extent already, and it's an evening or whatever once a quarter.

Especially since your managers will already know you pretty well.

I don't know, it's hard to be sympathetic, cause there are lots of awkward situations I just put up with in my day-to-day, that are a lot higher-pressure than that.

As I mentioned, it ends up being the thought of it that's the worst. I can grin and bear it - as you mentioned that just tends to be part of life.

I think we're probably talking about this a little too broadly. I wasn't thinking so much of the semiannual office party. On that side of things I'd probably completely agree with you.

I was thinking more about things that were some kind of event designed to "raise morale" or something with dedicated activities, potentially run by outsiders, for "team building." The sorts of things that have a strong "drink the koolaid" feel. Those are the things I start to think about (and dread) when that ultra-optimistic corporate speak shows up.

And I've seen at least one blog post on HN advocating for that sort of thing to be as frequent as possible for company size, down to even weekly IIRC - although at such a small size it might be harder for it to get too terrible.

The poster's wording is deeply vitriolic. If you can't see that points to some abnormal issues (either with them or with their particular company) then I'm not sure what to say.

Out of curiosity, have you ever worked at a company with a good deal of older married men/women with families?

Nobody is pressured to "suffer through it with a smile on your face." Nobody has to lie about anything. Among mature adults it is enough to say you simply had other plans, were tired, or simply "Oh, I was there for a bit."

In my personal experience, the kind of thinking that "I have to pretend I'm enjoying this," "I have to lie about why I left," or "people will judge me for not showing up" is a sort of neuroticism that is really entirely self-imposed / self-imagined. Nobody is actually judging you, you only think people are judging you (out of self-consciousness or something else). When I experienced it, it reminded me a lot of being in high school (and being very self-conscious).

I think it has to do with me being an introvert and not being able to deeply understand or view the world through an extrovert lens.

Having said that when I look around what I see is what appears to be mostly actors. And I think I'm just tired and jaded toward it.

People hide their ulterior motives behind a happy phrases in a way that I almost find offensive. I don't blame them, but I reserve the right to roll my eyes.

It's like how people hide behind "Changing the world for the better!" because "I want to get rich" doesn't sound as nice. Or how "Open friendly environment! Collaboration!" is used to push open offices when more often than not deep down the reasons are not quite the same as they say.

Sometimes I just want the wolrd and the people in it to be a little more real.

Having said that when I look around what I see is what appears to be mostly actors. And I think I'm just tired and jaded toward it.

People hide their ulterior motives behind a happy phrases in a way that I almost find offensive. I don't blame them, but I reserve the right to roll my eyes.

It's a bit unclear if you realize this or not, but to make it clear: there is a (very) large group of people who aren't acting or "hiding ulterior motives" when they act like this. They genuinely feel this way - indeed this type of behavior is what energizes them.

It's completely ok to not be one of these people of course.

It's like how people hide behind "Changing the world for the better!" because "I want to get rich" doesn't sound as nice.

I think more often than not, if you actually get to know those people, you'll find that they are true believers. You might think it's bullshit and maybe underneath it all it is, but in their minds, they are actually trying to change the world for the better.

I agree with you. This post, and the comments on it, felt incredibly creepy and inauthentic. So much self-congratulations about transparency and happiness while clearly obfuscating something very simple: the two that left wanted to grow really fast and get a big exit and the guy who stayed wanted to build a longer term company that is profitable. Thats fine and can be apprehended quickly when described plainly. We don't need to see you smiling in destinations around the world to accept that some business people disagreed about business strategy.

WeWork offices make me feel the same way. Feel's like I'm living in the Silicon Valley TV show.

That's interesting. I've toured several WeWork locations and never pulled the trigger on signing up and couldn't figure out why. They're beautiful, well designed, and reasonably priced in great locations. Something just didn't click.

I've been involved in starting/supporting early coworking groups before, so my reluctance to join WeWork has really confused me.

Everybody has different wishes.

I, for one, am pretty good friends with my flatmate and it works for me.

My girlfriend barely talks to her flatmates and it works good too.

But she explicitly searched for a flat with people who aren't into the whole "best friends party together" stuff.

And I explicitly asked a friend if he wanted to start sharing a flat with me.

Same with relationships. I do polyamory and many people think I'm crazy and they couldn't live like that, but it works for me.

Or I work from home and people tell me they need an office otherwise they wouldn't get into "work mode", that's why they could never work from home.

Wherever you look it's always the same pattern. People have different ways of living and that's okay.

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