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Comment by zaptheimpaler | Hacker News Reader

The discourse on "passion" in the context of CS has gradually been poisoned by commercial interests.

It started as a way of describing great programmers. Those who are at the top of the field probably are very passionate about it. Once "the best programmers are passionate" became established as a common meme, it was co-opted as a hiring signal since everyone only wants to hire the best. In response, all job-seekers are now obligated to being passionate, because after all thats what the companies are looking for and why wouldn't a company choose a passionate candidate over one who's not? Not to mention "passionate" is now abused as a euphemism for "60 hours of work at 40 hours pay! lucky you!"

The truth is the same as always - the majority of people have no passion for their jobs. That means they won't be as motivated as someone who loves the job, but they can do a good job nonetheless. If you do love your job, count your blessings.

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Passionate engineers can be a total drag to work with and lead. Imagine having to fight through squalls of passion in a business setting. "Passionate" has become in my mind another bullshit word that people use without understanding its meaning or implications.

In my experience, "passion" usually manifests itself as several hour-long discussions about trivia that have little to do with what's actually at stake.

Very frustrating.

I feel very torn about this whole topic.

I do think that many (most?) people would be able to learn to program to the point where they can make a good living, in an age where it's harder and harder to make a good living doing anything.

But I've been passionate, at least in some definitions, about programming since I was a young teen. Before that, even, if you count simple programming. Passionate may not be the right word, though. Obsessive might be better. Or driven. I can't not learn about programming.

But I try not to claim that everyone has to be passionate or obsessive or whatever. Yes, I am. And yes, I'm quite a good developer. But I've worked with and encountered plenty of people who get the job done and who clearly aren't passionate about code. And they're making a fine living at development.

Low-skill jobs are going away en masse over the next 50 years. Maybe new jobs will magically come in to replace them, but I don't think so. Not all of them; not this time.

And so discouraging people from learning to program may be discouraging them from learning the one skill they can pick up in a reasonable time frame that keeps them from collecting welfare while working at WalMart.

I think it's like writing in the future to come.

Everyone should write. Few become authors. It is the way of things. And programming will invade every corner of our essence. Much like this post, it is not the best, nor must it be for us to exchange information and better each other.

The real distortion in cs is the fact almost everyone needs a damn CS degree these days for mid-tier pay. Never mind needing to be under 30. (slight exaggeration to drive home the point)

I agree with you. My point was mostly that people should pursue fields that better fit with their own interests and enthusiasms, and that programming as a career is not a bed of roses and if you're going to go into it without passion you're gonna have a bad time.

Sorry, but that's based on wishful thinking.

Very few people are lucky enough to have their passions overlap with a career that's marketable.

What if your passion is woodworking? Making beautiful, detailed cabinets that sell for $16,000+ may sound profitable, but I took a class from a woodworker who did exactly that, and he said that the net pay after materials costs (which were less than $1000) came to about $7/hour. Passionate? Insanely so. Probably one of the best woodworkers on the planet; certainly top 100. Only reason he could afford to be a woodworker is that he was on disability and owned his home outright.

I know some passionate knitters. They would probably make about $3/hour, if they're lucky, selling their wares.

Renovating old cars? Maybe $8/hour.

Cooking? Opening a restaurant is a huge capital outlay, and 90% fail in the first year. Working at a restaurant can maybe get you $16/hour. At least we've gotten past starvation wages here.

Singing or other musical interests? Only the very top make a solid career out of it.

Many, many domains that people tend to be passionate about have a power-law distribution of money making. A few knitters make decent money by selling knitting books or videos; the rest do it just because they like it. The top musical stars make tons of money, and second tier stars can make a living, but you need the talent and luck to make it to the top.

A rather mediocre programmer with a couple of resume items courtesy FreeCodeCamp can make $25-40/hour, and then pursue their passion in their spare time. Top programmers make more, but for many people $40/hour is outside of their earning potential in any other field they're qualified for. For some people $25/hour is a serious pay raise at this point. So I totally wouldn't discourage them.

Well said, though one small difference is that no one will call you at 2AM to work on their car / wait on another table / etc. Dev work is potentially stressful in ways most jobs aren't, which isn't to say that it isn't also very well compensated, too. Personally I'm content to like what I do without having that rise to the level of passion - and I don't realistically expect more from my mail carrier, my mechanic, my waiter, or really even my doctor. I don't want them to hate what they do, but I don't have any illusions about them loving it so much they'd do even more of it if they only could. It's work.

People will call you at 2AM if you're a plumber. Or a doctor. Or a dentist. Or a locksmith.

And sometimes you'll get stuck waiting tables on XMas because the restaurant you work for requires it.

Yes, it varies by job. But 2AM calls are hardly unique to programming.

FWIW I really do want a doctor that's passionate about medicine, for the same reason that I want my lead developer to be passionate: If it's "just a job" they may not be following current best practices, which do change rather rapidly.

To be honest, I think the "GP" doctor's days are numbered. A registered nurse with a really good AI medical reference would likely to a better job than the 80th percentile of doctors, maybe even match the 99th percentile. There's too much information that isn't in any doctor's head, and a GP is basically a human expert system. A really good AI expert system would do a better job, and a solid nurse following the directions could handle the human part of the interaction.

Really? Okay; tell me, right now, about another field where I can make over $100K per year nearly ANYWHERE in the US, without additional formal education, in a working environment that gives me free breakfast, lunch and dinner, doesn't make me wear a uniform and actually pays me to learn new things.

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