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Comment by elcapitan | Hacker News Reader

Am I the only one who finds these Adam Curtis "documentaries" pretty manipulative? They seem to reassure and reinforce everybody in their view on the world. I recently watched Steve Bannons "documentary" "Generation Zero" which works pretty similarly. The difference seems to be that it's meant to reassure the other side of the political spectrum.

When you disagree with such movies it's probably easier not to get sucked in too much into the narrative style, so you can separate manipulation and stated facts easier.

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Do you find opinionated essays by persuasive writers to be "manipulative"? I view Adam Curtis documentaries as "intellectual essays in film/narrative form".

There is another kind of documentary, e.g. the Ken Burns style, that seems to take no position, similar to a piece of journalism. This is simply a different style of documentary.

You should check out Werner Herzog's "Lo and Behold", which may be at the center point of these two styles. In that film, Herzog is clearly stating a point of view, but the visual structure -- its scenes, setup, cinematography, and structure -- borrows from the journalistic style. If you put these three styles on a spectrum, perhaps then you will find the style itself isn't worth debating, just as George Orwell vs Jorge Luis Borges may have been writers of very different styles, but very (nonetheless) interesting content.

I love Curtis's documentaries, but they are explicitly manipulative. The imagery is clearly used to evoke emotional reactions. It's impossible to watch one while simultaneously dispassionately evaluating its claims. It doesn't help that he provides no supporting citations, unless you count the footage.

I was actually a little disappointed with "Lo and Behold." Maybe I set my expectations too high, but it struck me as very disorganized. It seemed like it was trying to cover too many topics at once and draw connections between them that weren't really there.

It still had beautiful cinematography, but I just couldn't enjoy the commentary.

> Do you find opinionated essays by persuasive writers to be "manipulative"

To be honest: Yes. I kind of avoid columns for that reason. I get very little out of that kind of stuff. The same goes for those lengthy "long read" opinion pieces that have come into fashion. They're basically just very long columns.

Well, that is certainly a valid personal taste!

But, I think the term "manipulative" suggests Curtis is somehow being "dishonest" in his filmmaking. I find that instead he's trying to craft an intellectual argument which may lead you to rethink things. In this film, the suggestion is that eroding at the nature of truth can lead to many in society feeling numb to current events, because they cannot trust what is "real" and what is "theater". The result might be fatalism/apathy. This is an interesting thought and, in my view, very relevant to our world.

It's easy to get sucked into thinking it all makes perfect sense but there's a few pretty big implied leaps of logic. This spoof sums it up pretty well I think https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1bX3F7uTrg

Lol, this is great. Thanks.

His style (hypnotic, trippy, brainwashing) just swamps any substance there might be for me. I switch off because I don't want to be hypnotised while watching what is ostensibly a documentary.

Yeah, the way he jumps and interconnects history to fit his narrative reminds me of Glenn Beck's delusional meandering.

They aren't documentaries, they're narratives.

Each one may be internally consistent, but the ones that overlap (in time or in subject matter) are semi-contradictory.

Errrm, this did not reassure or reinforce me or my views, rather it scared me witless and made me rethink things...

Still different strokes for different folks and all that.

I actually like the honest subjectivity. Makes it easy to oppose it, contrary to things posing as factual and objective.

I find his style a bit disturbing. It feels like being hypnotized or brainwashed. The flow of the narrative combined with he imagery, retro clips, audio, music combine to put you in a trance like state.

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