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Comment by sandworm101 | Hacker News Reader

That NSA was tracking flight data was no great reveal. When we fly we share that fact with countless international organizations. Government boarder services. Airport secuity. Credit card companies. Insurers. And certainly the airlines. Anyone who thinks that air travel was ever private, pre or post-911, doesnt appreciate the number of information systems involved with moving people across boarders via aircraft. The data was always open to whatever organization could express a reasonable need.

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I agree with your general point, but we really need a better approach to saying these types of things. In general, it seemingly comes across as justification, hipsterism, or even a personal attack. When really the intent is more "I wish you had listened to me earlier, but I am glad you're here now. Let's try to rationally tackle this problem within its longer term context, rather than being alarmed over a single news cycle".

Similarly, Snowden didn't really reveal much that wasn't already known or trivially inferable from what was. But qualitatively, what he did was a "great reveal". It doesn't actually matter what had been keeping people from being aware - overt conspiracy ("classified"), or just their own cognitive dissonance. What matters is that many more people are now aware of the surveillance society.

just because it is this way doesn't mean we can't do better.

Sure, but rolling this back now, especially in this political climate, seems exceedingly unlikely.

But to what advantage? Before governments knew who was arriving on thier shores travellers would be held for days, even months, sometimes on dedicated islands. Even in the 90s, 10+ hours to clear customs and immigration was not unussual in many countries. Today, law enforcement and immigration officials can rely upon advance data and do away with lengthy in-person background checks for all. This is why land crossings, which are unannounced, take so much longer and are more unpredictable than air crossings.

Fly to Dubai. Then try driving to Dubai. Same boarder, vastly different inspection.

Spoken like someone who rarely crossed borders in the 90s. I spent significant time crossing borders in the 80s and 90s and it never took much time. This was primarily between PR China and the USA so not your friendliest border but also involved land crossings between Hong Kong and PR China. Most of these tickets were purchased in cash months in advance. I'm not sure why you think it was so onerous without info sharing.

Try Saudi, or russian boarders, or vietnam. I spent a great many hours in long lines to see stonefaced boarder guards carrying more bullets than brains.

What would be better in this case? Should anyone be able to show up to an airport, pay for a ticket and board a flight anonymously?

I'm a pretty staunch libertarian and even I can see the benefit here. Until we reach the border-less, one-world utopia that so many people seem to be gunning for, it's valuable to know who is coming/going from your country.

> Should anyone be able to show up to an airport, pay for a ticket and board a flight anonymously?

Yes.

>Should anyone be able to show up to an airport, pay for a ticket and board a flight anonymously?

This is the reality in large parts of EU, I've flown several times without having my real name on the ticket.

Hell, when I fly private it's even better. Show up at airport, meet pilot, get on the plane, hand the pilot a pile of cash. No passport control or security at any point, and this isn't just EU.

So far no massive disasters have resulted from this.

Hmmm... I've flow a ton in the EU and always had to show ID that matched the name on the ticket.

I did fly in SE Asia a few times where no ID was required and the name didn't have to match.

>Hmmm... I've flow a ton in the EU and always had to show ID that matched the name on the ticket.

Yeah, those are the rules. However, the only place where your passport and ticket will be compared is at the gate and they certainly never look very carefully.

At the very least, the DHS shouldn't have free reign over flights that don't actually go into, from or even over the US.

Which, to me, is the point of the border checks. The country can request all the information it wants at this time from people who want to enter and refuse admission if they do not comply (or if it does not like what is sees).

But this is separate from airline tickets, passenger manifests, etc.

> Should anyone be able to show up to an airport, pay for a ticket and board a flight anonymously?

People can already do this when boarding a bus, boarding a train or riding in a taxi.

Buses, trains and taxis only threaten their occupants. Planes can be weaponised as missiles.

Ground-based vehicles can definitely be used as offensive weapons. Plenty of examples of people not in vehicles being injured. The truck used in the attack in Nice, France is a very clear example. Granted, it wasn't a transit vehicle, but there's no reason why one couldn't be.

There's a psychological difference between taking out pedestrians and taking out a building.

Your claim was that taxis, buses, and trains couldn't be weaponized, not that there was a psychological difference between them. A bus or taxi can be run into a building as well. (I'll grant a train is different.)

Ground vehicles have been used against buildings on numerous occasions, far more often than planes.

Amtrak and Greyhound require photo ID (though I've only had Amtrak ask to see it when paying cash), and taxis will not generally take you between cities.

You could drive, but you will almost certainly pass some ALPR cameras.

There is no anonymous long-distance transportation in the US.

For international flights, they already get this information from the immigration/border control.

For domestic flights, there's no reason tickets can't be anonymous. Here in Japan tickets are sold cash and there are no ID checks on flights and the country seems to be doing fine on the security front.

> For domestic flights, there's no reason tickets can't be anonymous. Here in Japan tickets are sold cash and there are no ID checks on flights and the country seems to be doing fine on the security front.

You can board a (domestic) plane in Japan without giving your name?

I've only bought tickets online, where it does ask your name (and age), but you could just enter AAAAA AAAA, it's never checked by anyone.

You can in Europe (Schengen). ID controls can happen so you can't be 100% sure but other then that you could book a flight with whatever name you want and no one will notice.

Valid, though travelsWith is something that I didn't think the government would be able to systematically canvass unless they had access to passenger manifests.

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