Comment by itistoday | Hacker News Reader

Comment by itistoday | Hacker News Reader

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Sure, I understand, but I don't think my question was crude. I agree it's important to understand the principles.

I understand the basic idea of how Clojure's data structures work with STM and how they're immutable and how a "new" data structure is created upon mutation without copying the old one. But that understanding isn't helping me.

I don't understand Cliff's version well enough to be able to perform benchmarks in my head, nor do I understand either of the data structures well enough to understand the principles (as you said) to know when to pick one over the other.

So you said that when thread-count > 1000 I should pick Cliff's? Is it that simple? I would suspect not. What if there's only 2 threads involved? I'd just like a generalized overview of which is better for what types of situations, and by all means, to understand the "why" of it would be great too.

Or is the idea that because Cliff's version is mutable and does the whole "conflating state w/identity" thing, that it has no place in Clojure at all?

With STM and persistent data structures, you're fundamentally limited by how fast you can change a single memory location; and you can't freely modify the memory location because of the risk of missed updates. Cliff's table operates concurrently over the whole data structure - there's no single bottleneck, rather every slot in the table is potentially an update location.

When I said thousands of threads, I was stressing the massively concurrent potential of Cliff's design, but more importantly, the point where the hardware is fully subscribed and physical hardware threads are frequently trying to update the data structure. If there are only 2 threads involved on a dual-core machine, depending on everything else (constant factors), I would still expect Cliff's table to be faster.

Clojure's approach is at a different level of abstraction than Cliff's approach. Probably a better analogy would be whether it's better to manufacture a car or use a travel agent. Not everybody could safely manufacture a car, but almost anyone can use a travel agent with moderate phone, social and organizational skills. But they also solve problems with radically different scopes.

I don't think you can have a hashtable in closure. From what I understand, none of their collections are array based, where as this is.

Clojure uses trees whereas java uses maps primarily.

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